Some History on that HOPE Robo-call

The Georgia Republican Party is out with a new robo-call attacking Jason Carter on his so-called plan to “kill HOPE scholarships.”

You can listen to the full audio below, courtesy of the Jason Carter campaign.

It’s an emotionally charged attack, but it deserves a little historical perspective.

When Democratic Governor Zell Miller originally proposed the HOPE scholarship over two decades ago, he intended to help low-income students afford a college education. In fact, HOPE originally had an income cap of $66,000. But that cap was later increased to $100,000 and then eliminated altogether in 1994.

Gradually, HOPE allowed more and more Georgia students to afford college and even had the effect of making our universities more academically competitive as more Georgians competed for spots in our university system.

But when the recession hit, lottery funds and state revenues fell dramatically, putting the HOPE scholarship in serious jeopardy. Upon seeing the numbers, the legislature at the time debated how best to protect Zell Miller’s famous scholarship for Georgia’s students.

Some wanted to remain true to the original intent of the scholarship and reinstate income eligibility requirements that would preserve the full scholarship for low-income students. But others worried about the effect of brain drain and wanted, instead, to preserve the scholarship only for the highest-performing students.

In the end, advocates for low-income Georgians lost out. In 2011, Governor Deal passed a HOPE reform bill that raised the GPA requirement for HOPE from 2.0 to 3.0, lowered the amount of tuition covered from 100% to less than 90%, and cut funding altogether for books and school fees.

Particularly gifted students, however, would qualify for the “Zell Miller Scholarship,” which required a 3.7 GPA in high school, a 1200 on the SAT (CR+M), or a 26 on the ACT. If they maintained at least a 3.3 GPA in college, they would receive enough HOPE to pay for 100% of tuition costs at a public institution or $2000/semester at a private institution.

Nevertheless, the HOPE scholarship, at least in some capacity, would endure. And, in fact, the Georgia College Republicans even praised the Governor on the issue, calling Deal’s decision to make cuts and preserve the long-term health of the scholarship an act of “political courage.”

Those reforms hurt a lot of families, but nowhere was the crisis more evident than in Georgia’s technical colleges, which lost nearly 25% of their students due to cuts in HOPE. And after a collective outcry from colleges, parents, students, and a bipartisan coalition of state legislators, Gov. Deal finally agreed to a patch by signing a bill pushed by Rep. Stacey Evans and Sen. Jason Carter that lowered the GPA requirements back to 2.0.

But the current HOPE scholarship has still wholly departed from its original purpose and now allows a student from an extraordinarily wealthy family to receive the exact same grant as a student from a working class family. And it is against that backdrop that Jason Carter has floated the idea of restoring the full HOPE scholarship by looking at income eligibility standards.

Taking that approach would mean that yes, some wealthy families would likely see lower HOPE grants. And those cuts will surely hurt those families. But in return, low- and middle-class families would actually see their grants rise, perhaps even to pre-reform levels.

But if you’re worried about what you hear from that GOP-funded robo-call, let’s be clear about one thing: Both Nathan Deal and Jason Carter want to keep the HOPE scholarship. They just have very different ideas about how to go about it.

59 comments

  1. ryanhawk says:

    “Gradually, HOPE allowed more and more Georgia students to afford college…”

    I’m not sure this is true. Some quick back of the envelope math:

    Tuition and fees were never more than 1000 per quarter or 3000 per year during my time at UGA prior to the advent of HOPE. Mandatory fees alone are now in excess of 1000 at UGA, and the Hope Scholarship appears to leave a UGA student taking a 12 hour undergrad load nearly 1600 dollars short of paying full tuition.

    So that’s 5200 dollars in fees and tuition annually that today’s HOPE scholarship students must cover versus the less than 3000 I paid. If this is true, then even after adjusting for inflation UGA was more affordable prior to the HOPE scholarship than it is with HOPE today.

    • John Konop says:

      This is national problem not a “Hope” problem….You would have a valid point if the inflation was only in Georgia for college education…..as most know this is happening all over the country….The real issue driving this is tax payer backed student loan program that is way out of control….It is now bigger than credit card debt and dragging the economy….We have students graduating with home mortgage style debt…which is hurting consumer spending….also much of this debt will never get paid back…..I have made this point numerous times over the years….

      I agree with Mark Cuban with his solution…

      …….MARK CUBAN: The Student Loan Bubble Is ‘No Different’ Than The Housing Bubble………….

      ……….Cuban’s solution is to put a limit on the amount of money that any individual can borrow in a single year that is guaranteed by the government. Cuban said the government’s backing of student loans has allowed universities to increase their tuition and increase administrative excesses………

      http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mark-cuban-student-loan-bubble-153619575.html

      • saltycracker says:

        The student loan mess is a biggie. The HOPE issue is driven by massive amounts of public monies funneled to university systems via gambling, tax diversions and a long list of other tactics. It is a national issue chasing the “pay competitively…” race and one when you can’t control it you do an end around with gambling money.

  2. saltycracker says:

    She mentions thousands of “middle class families” being effected, you refer to the “extraordinarily wealthy” and leftists on PP explain Carter’s wealthy as household incomes being those over $140k.

    What is Carter’s cutoff ?

    If it is $140k or out a lot of bright Georgia’s are going elsewhere.
    If it is $250k and restoration under it will pick up a few points for him.

    • I think very few people will make a college decision from families > $140k based strictly on HOPE. UGA will still be vastly cheaper than a UVA/UNC. Princeton will still be vastly better than UGA.

      So you’ll either still go to UGA because it’s cheap, or you were never going there in the first place because you wanted to go somewhere else that is a better school like an Ivy or Stanford.

  3. PegM says:

    Lower standards to enter college (i.e. GPA and SAT), means a student is entering an institution of higher learning without the skills and knowledge to succeed. College is not meant for everyone or as a waiting room to figure out what they should do with their life.

    • Ellynn says:

      As some one who had a low GPA, and a low verbal score on the SAT, your “without skills and knowledge” coment does not explain my graduate level degrees and steady middle income lifestyle. Tests alone do not measure ablity. The GPA of a 16 year old who hates their clicky high school does not measure drive. We need to look at the whole package of a college application. We can only guess how many outsiding honor roll students wasted their Hope Funding chances over too many parties.

  4. John Konop says:

    Dear Mr. Carter,

    Part of the Hope initiative is to keep the best and brightest here who have many options via scholarships….Georgia Tech is a world class university that has a major advantage of picking off the best and brightest at a higher % than most top tier universities in other states via Hope Scholarship. If you change the formula you will open up even more of our top tier thinkers leaving the state of Georgia. It is the top tier that on a macro that create jobs and growth…..If you kill Hope based on income…they will just go to other top universities not in our state. The top 2 % in IQ have many options….may not be fair….but in the real world they are the key to long term success…

    Sincerely

    John Konop

    • saltycracker says:

      If the formula is $250k cutoff and restoration below he will help Tech. Don’t believe that for a minute but what is his formula ?

    • greencracker says:

      So what if the universe of Georgia kids who are rich and also in “top 2 percent” of IQ go to Cal Tech instead of Georgia Tech?

      Georgia Tech’s got plenty of foreign kids coming in and paying cash. There is a huge, huge amount of smart kids in the world; apparently we don’t even need to give them scholarships. If we’d give ’em some long-term visas, plenty of them would stay and printing a visa’s cheaper than a college scholarship.

        • greencracker says:

          I’m definitely pro-HOPE, no doubt. I’m not stupid enough to oppose the hand that fed me. The hand that sent me to school in such a way that I came out debt-free.

          But I’m also troubled by the aspect of it that’s a transfer of wealth from society at large (gamblers) to society’s more well-educated.

          I have an aunt who’s a gambling addict and it’s not a pretty sight. She works and works and spends every penny on gambling. Why should her addiction pay for my education? I’m glad it did, but seems like there should be a better way.

      • John Konop says:

        Smart Kids tend to come from wealthy parents….wealthy parents have money and or connections to invest into ideas….Most foreign kids go back to their country ie for many reasons from immigration…….Tech and Emory have become great training grounds for innovation…..Georgia Tech has about 20 percent of the graduates become millionaires…The programs foster not just math/science knowledge it fosters entrepreneur skills as well…Local top 2 % kids/local money/local connections….good recipe for growth…If not they will just do it elsewhere…..

        • tribeca says:

          Going strictly by test scores, yes “smartness” and parental income do tend to correlate. But as we both know, correlation does not always equal causation.

          Higher income students have access to tutors and prep courses to better prepare them for SAT/ACT testing and school in general. They are more likely to attend private schools or high-performing public schools where they have access to better facilities, lower student:teacher ratios, and school-sponsored test prep services or courses. Higher income students can afford to take SAT subject tests and AP courses, enhancing their admissions profile. They can also afford extra-curricular activities likely to make their applications stronger.

          Lower income students don’t have ready access to these same advantages. They are also largely less likely to think of college as an “option” despite their actual level of intelligence or academic capability.

          The reason HOPE was created (heck, why it was named “HOPE” in the first place) was to give kids from lower income families the opportunity to go to school and carve out a place for themselves that was decidedly better than the generations before them.

          • John Konop says:

            All you wrote is a variable with students not in the top 2 %….The top 2 % do not need much help…they get it…you just push them in the right direction….

    • tribeca says:

      The “brain drain” argument just doesn’t hold that much water.

      1) There’s already an economic incentive for Georgia high school graduates to stay in-state. In-state tuition rates at a public university in Georgia are going to be significantly lower than out-of-state or private tuition at other colleges. For example, these are the cost of attendance numbers for UGA, Tech, and some of the more popular alternative destinations (note: alternative destinations determined based on where my friends from high school wound up going to college):

      UGA (in-state): $23,062/yr
      Georgia Tech (in-state): $24,290/yr
      UNC-Chapel Hill (non-resident): $45,806/yr
      UVA (non-resident): $50,990/yr
      Duke (private): $63,530/yr
      Vanderbilt (private): $62,320/yr
      UW-Madison (non-resident): $41,366/yr
      Michigan (non-resident): $55,404/yr
      Yale (private): $63,250/yr

      Attending UGA as an in-state resident over UNC nets you a savings of $22,744 per year extrapolate over 4 years and you’re looking at a nearly $91k difference. That’s not even including the savings in interest on the student loans potentially needed to pay for both schools.

      2) “Top-tier thinkers” with the parental income to afford better out-of-state or private schools are already leaving. I have plenty of friends that spurned the HOPE scholarship in order to attend UVA, UNC, Duke, Vandy, and the Ivies… they went to arguably better schools and the added cost wasn’t much of a deterrent because a) their parents could afford it and 2) the added cost was worth the added value of a prestigious degree. Have you seen Stanford, its the most amazing place ever…

      3) “Brain drain” to the extent it exists, can be mitigated by making the state an attractive place for recent graduates and young professionals. Atlanta is currently a magnet for millennials due to the amenable weather, low cost of living, somewhat progressive environment, and great restaurants/culture/nightlife/whathaveyou. Outside of that, fresh batches of “top-thinkers” aren’t really coming to Georgia and the ones from Georgia, like me, are leaving and going elsewhere.

      • John Konop says:

        1)First you are mixing private schools with public schools….not a rational way to look at numbers…

        …….Attending UGA as an in-state resident over UNC nets you a savings of $22,744 per year extrapolate over 4 years and you’re looking at a nearly $91k difference. That’s not even including the savings in interest on the student loans potentially needed to pay for both schools…….

        2) Not true when throw in scholarship money for the top 2% …your math is way off….

        ……. “Top-tier thinkers” with the parental income to afford better out-of-state or private schools are already leaving. I have plenty of friends that spurned the HOPE scholarship in order to attend UVA, UNC, Duke, Vandy, and the Ivies… they went to arguably better schools and the added cost wasn’t much of a deterrent because a) their parents could afford it and 2) the added cost was worth the added value of a prestigious degree. Have you seen Stanford, its the most amazing place ever…..

        3) You understand GT in math and science is ranked higher than every school you posted other than Stanford which is private? And GT is usually the same or within a place or 2 within Stanford.

        …“Brain drain” to the extent it exists, can be mitigated by making the state an attractive place for recent graduates and young professionals. Atlanta is currently a magnet for millennials due to the amenable weather, low cost of living, somewhat progressive environment, and great restaurants/culture/nightlife/whathaveyou. Outside of that, fresh batches of “top-thinkers” aren’t really coming to Georgia and the ones from Georgia, like me, are leaving and going elsewhere…..

        4) Could help…I think you are mixing liberal arts schools with math/science schools. GT is coop based ie working experience…the majority of the coops are local ie feeding metro Atlanta…The incubation companies are all around tech….

        • tribeca says:

          You contend, blindly, that HOPE is responsible for keeping high-income, top 2% students in-state and that, without it, “top tier thinkers” will flea to other states for better educational opportunities.

          I am arguing that in-state tuition already incentivizes Georgia residents to remain in the state for college. Instituting an income cap is not going to dramatically change the economic calculus for high-income families when it comes to making college decisions. Additionally, “top tier thinkers” are already leaving the state to attend better universities than Georgia can provide and that is a pattern that isn’t really going to change until a UGA/Tech degree is as prestigious as one from Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, UVA, the UCs, Michigan, etc.

          For example, when I applied for college I had to decide between UGA, Tech, Columbia, Georgetown, Harvard, Penn, UNC, and UVA. It was a hard decision because my parents couldn’t afford to pay out-of-state or private school tuition. Had my parents said “go wherever you want, we’ll pay for it,” I would not have gone to UGA (and I’m someone who is proud to be a Bulldog and loved every moment of my 4 years in Athens). When I went to law school, I got the heck out of Georgia because I could afford a much better school than UGA via scholarship and student loans (thanks for keeping me debt free, HOPE).

          • John Konop says:

            You are flat out wrong about a Tech degree…It is at the same level…via math/science…facts are facts…once again you are confusing liberal arts with math/ science…

            • tribeca says:

              For a student that knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they want to be an engineer, Tech is a great option. For someone looking for graduate programs in engineering, Tech is a great option.

              For most high school seniors, kids who kinda know what they’d like to do but are open to multiple areas of academic interest, and for kids looking to get the most prestigious degree possible… Tech can’t provide what Stanford, the Ivies, the UCs, and UVA can.

              • John Konop says:

                Once again you are missing a lot of moving parts…..The top 20% at Georgia Tech become multi millionaires….They are also training them to top level business entrepreneurs not just engineers…..The top level people create companies which create jobs ie economic growth. We are not talking about top level liberal arts people…we are talking business…because the point was about economic growth…not high level intellectual thought that may or may not produce any economic gain. We know the top 20% at Tech produce gain…and we want the gain to be local….

                • tribeca says:

                  You’re overgeneralizing to a ridiculous extreme. Being in the top 20% at Tech does not ensure you a lifetime of bottles and models. Are there Tech alums starting companies and/or making a lot of money? Yeah, but even UGA can boast multi-millionaires with a straight face and without counting Stafford, AJ, and Bubba Watson.

                  The odds of you making yacht money are slim regardless of where you go to school. Having a prestigious degree from Harvard, Stanford, Princeton and the like certainly up your chances a little bit. Employers respect those degrees. Investors in would-be start-ups respect those degrees. Top-flight professional and graduate schools respect those degrees. While people in Atlanta and in the South are familiar with and respect UGA’s academic excellence or Tech’s quality non-engineering offerings, that may not be the case in California or the East Coast.

                  Additionally, going to an shiny ivory tower institution ups your odds of meeting highly accomplished individuals. While you may not be roommates with the next Zuckerberg, at the very least you’re in class with so-and-so’s son, which might snag you an “in” at Goldman Sachs and put you on your way to said bottles and said models.

                  Go out to Silicon Valley and talk with one of the insufferable app-developing individuals swimming in a Scrooge McDuckian pool of gold. Go to Manhattan and chat with a hedge fund manager between the lines of blow he’s doing in a Ritz Carlton bathroom. Chances are they went to Stanford, an Ivy, a UC, or another “elite” university. There are some Georgia Tech grads out there. There are some UGA grads out there. But they’re less represented than the big name schools.

                  • greencracker says:

                    Wharton MBA vs. GA Tech MBA — is it the education that’s better or merely the name and connections you get at Wharton that are better?

                    If you’re talking an MBA in Accounting for example, I can’t imagine that Wharton turns out CPAs that are 2x better than Ga Tech’s MBAs. But I can imagine Wharton folks find their way into fancier places, if they’re the kind of folk who want to live in New York or whatnot.

                    If it’s MBA in IT Management, I’d be thinking Ga Tech has the edge, tho I’d want someone with an undergraduate in CS or something similar.

                    If it’s MBA in Private Equity I’d be looking at Wharton, though I would think a lot of that would have to be OJT and connections.

                    If you’re talking about some junk like “executive MBA in eight weekends, as long as your company pays full tuition,” I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in either one. 😉

                  • John Konop says:

                    Georgia Tech is ranked 4rth in the country in a field of study that you even admit is top income producing and innovating degree among college graduates. How is that not elite? You understand that would only make 3 more colleges better in the USA? Finally I am in the financial services industry….GT is a math/science innovation college…..why would you compare it to colleges that focus on finance like Wharton….? it makes no sense? If I was looking for bio engernering guru to invest in I would look at someone at GT before….Harvard, Vandy, Yale…You get innovation drives jobs….I am guessing you are not in the business world…

          • John Konop says:

            Facts do matter in a debate…..

            U.S. News & World Report

            Undergraduate Programs

            The Georgia Tech College of Engineering continues to be recognized as a top-five engineering school in the nation and an elite public institution. The undergraduate engineering program at the College ranked 4th in the 2015 America’s Best Colleges edition of U.S. News & World Report (published in September 2014). All of the programs offered by the College, the nation’s largest and most diverse engineering college, placed among the top 10 of their respective areas for the third consecutive year.

            U.S. News & World Report Undergraduate Rankings, published September 9, 2014

            Industrial and Systems Engineering 1st
            Civil Engineering 2nd
            Aerospace Engineering 3rd
            Environmental Engineering 3rd
            Biomedical Engineering 4th
            Mechanical Engineering 5th
            Computer Engineering 6th
            Electrical Engineering 6th
            Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering 7th
            Materials Science and Engineering

            Graduate Programs

            For the third consecutive year all of Georgia Tech’s engineering graduate programs ranked in the top ten in the nation in their respective specialties, powering the College of Engineering to a second-place ranking among public engineering institutions (sixth overall) in the latest U.S. News & World Report graduate rankings of national universities granting doctoral degrees.

            http://coe.gatech.edu/stats-and-rankings

            • tribeca says:

              At what point did I imply Tech is a crap school? I readily acknowledge that it is one of the best engineering schools in the country. However, not every student (even students at your magical “top 2%”) wants to pursue a career in engineering. For those that know they want to do engineering, Georgia Tech is an outstanding choice. For the majority of students that either a) know they want to do something other than engineering (i.e., medicine, law, business); b) are completely unsure of what they want to do; and/or 3) open to a number of different disciplines; Georgia Tech (and UGA) aren’t going to meet their needs as well as other, more prestigious, universities will.

              Let’s take business school for example. Georgia Tech has a good program, but students with the grades and money to attend Wharton, HBS, Stanford, etc. are much better served by doing so.

              My main point (that your complaint about brain drain is overblown) remains true. High achieving students from wealthy families are already leaving the state and the HOPE Scholarship isn’t doing anything to make them stay. Unless they want an engineering degree from Georgia Tech, these students and their families recognize that Stanford, the Ivies, the UCs, UVA, Duke, Vandy, etc. are going to give their children a “better” education and “better” opportunities than UGA or a non-engineering degree from Tech. If you ask the top tier of students at Westminster or Lovett where they’re going to college next year, I’m sure you’ll hear Harvard/Yale/Vanderbilt/Duke/UVA a lot more than you’ll hear UGA/Tech. It’s because these students (the top 2% or “top-tier thinkers, as you’d call them) have the academic and financial ability to obtain the best education possible.

              Again, I’m a proud Bulldog. The four years I spent at UGA remain the happiest of my life and I proudly hang my two UGA degrees on the wall. But, if my parents had the financial ability to send me anywhere in the country, I would have gone to a better school out of state.

              • John Konop says:

                ………However, not every student (even students at your magical “top 2%”) wants to pursue a career in engineering. For those that know they want to do engineering, Georgia Tech is an outstanding choice…..

                You keep missing our flagship university is a fostering machine for entrepreneurs not just engineers….. We want those kids to stay in state to be the future business venture people. What part of this do you not understand?

                • tribeca says:

                  I understand all of it. It’s my points that seem to fly over your head at an alarming rate.

                  You appear to be arguing that an income cap on the HOPE Scholarship exposes this state to a “brain drain” of “top-tier thinkers.”

                  I countered that students with the academic and financial ability to attend better schools than Tech & UGA are already doing so and will continue to do so in the absence of the HOPE Scholarship. The decision-making of high aptitude students from wealthy families isn’t really going to change all that much in the absence of the HOPE Scholarship. For them, cost already is not a factor. To the extent that it is, in-state tuition already provides a significant financial incentive when compared with the cost of non-resident or private tuition at other schools.

                  I also contended that we can negate “brain drain” to the extent that it even exists, by making our in-state universities better and by making the state a more attractive place for recent graduates. Atlanta is already doing a lot of things that are attractive to millennials with the Beltline, Tech Village, culture, good restaurants, low cost of living, etc. etc. etc.

                  I get what you’re saying about Tech preparing entrepreneurs, not just engineers. I disagree, however, that Tech is so good at preparing entrepreneurs that a “top tier thinker” would be better served by choosing Tech over Stanford, Wharton, HBS, etc.

                  • John Konop says:

                    ……I countered that students with the academic and financial ability to attend better schools than Tech …..

                    1) You just saw they are not better schools via math/science…in fact most schools you mentioned are ranked below GT….why let facts get in the way…

                    …. The decision-making of high aptitude students from wealthy families isn’t really going to change all that much in the absence of the HOPE Scholarship….

                    2) Once again not true….read the book millionaire next door and or Rich Dad Poor dad…you will learn something….

                    …….I get what you’re saying about Tech preparing entrepreneurs, not just engineers. I disagree, however, that Tech is so good at preparing entrepreneurs that a “top tier thinker” would be better served by choosing Tech over Stanford, Wharton, HBS, etc.,,,,,,,

                    3) As you saw in their discipline they are getting better students….GT has a higher rate of millionaires….than must the schools you mentioned…In business we use money for rankings….

                    • tribeca says:

                      You’re an entertaining brick wall, John, I’ll give you that.

                      1) I’m not disputing Tech’s rigor when it comes to math & science. I am disputing, however, that wealthy, high-acheiving students are choosing Tech over Princeton, Stanford, etc. because of “value.” Again, go to Westminster/Lovett/Pace and ask their top students where they’re going to college in the fall. Let me know how many more out-of-state responses you get. I make this argument from experience. These are students myself, my spouse, and our siblings went to school with. The top students at these schools are going to Harvard, Princeton, UVA, Stanford. If they have an interest in engineering, then they’re possibly going to Tech. But in general, they’re choosing more expensive, more prestigious schools because they can.

                      2) I’ve read both those books. Rich Dad Poor Dad is absolute dreck.

                      3) The odds of becoming a millionaire are slim regardless of where you go to school. My odds of becoming a professional athlete are higher at LSU but that doesn’t mean I’m going to become one just by going there. You’re confusing correlation with causation. Georgia Tech is a good school. UGA is a good school. However, for those with the money and grades to go anywhere, they are already choosing (and will likely continue to choose) to go elsewhere.

                    • John Konop says:

                      …..Westminster/Lovett/Pace…..

                      1) Their are more top level students by numbers in the public schools. Hate to deflate your ego…..And many successful business and professional people use top notch public schools…..The AP track program at my kids high school, Walton, Milton….. produced within the margin of error the same results… as your top level private school….

                      …….. I’ve read both those books. Rich Dad Poor Dad is absolute dreck….

                      2) Are you a millionaire via earning it? If not re-read the books….

                      ….The odds of becoming a millionaire are slim regardless of where you go to school…..

                      3) At GT it is 20% for graduates…you just made my point! BTW the 20% number is an outlier number…help us understand how I am “confusing correlation with causation”?

                    • tribeca says:

                      1) I readily acknowledge that public high schools crank out high achieving students. But, since this post was originally about an income cap on the HOPE Scholarship I referenced Westminster/Lovett/Pace since that’s where you’re more likely to find the population of students that have both the grades and the financial wherewithal to afford to attend the top schools. I agree, as does everyone, that HOPE incentivizes students to stay in state. HOPE is less of an incentive, however, when you can afford to go to better schools.

                      2) Not a millionaire yet, but I can assure you that when I become one it won’t be a result of some jazzy self-help book.

                      3) I’m saying you’re confusing correlation for causation because you are. A number of factors go into that number, a number which I’m not even sure is true. Tech is smaller and it specializes in academic areas with higher income career tracks. You could boost UGA’s numbers if you cut it’s available majors down to only those that have a generally high earning potential.

                      It seems I’m making the same argument over and over, which is the universal sign I’ve been spending my idle time this afternoon contributing to the daily dietary needs of local trolls. If you can’t comprehend the logic behind my argument, then I’ve lost a lot of faith in Tech’s critical reading program.

                    • John Konop says:

                      ……. it specializes in academic areas with higher income career tracks…

                      1)Bingo you just made my point! If they are millionaires more likely part of the business world….WOW…Why would not want our local talent to stay here…to create jobs…..Why blow money on an expensive private school if you can get the quality cheaper….

                      ……Not a millionaire yet, but I can assure you that when I become one it won’t be a result of some jazzy self-help book….

                      2) You obviously did not get the point of the book….it is about respecting money….Old school…Like why blow money on an expensive private school when you can get the same quality cheaper…

  5. Trey A. says:

    A mailer is out, too. I got two copies of it yesterday. I’m guessing the next wave of attacks will blame Jason Carter for the Ebola outbreak.

  6. Jon Lester says:

    I didn’t vote for Carter yesterday, and might not in the runoff, but I would have seriously advised against this robocall in particular, because the appeal seems to be that things need to be left as they are, with poor people paying for rich kids’ college education, essentially (and consumer economics education in Georgia public schools doesn’t seem to have improved a bit in the last 21 years). That sounds like one big step backwards in GOP outreach efforts.

    • saltycracker says:

      The ad is dead on “thousands of middle class” but weak as it did not clarify Carter’s income restrictions.
      The problem is many of the folks he plans to cut off have no idea he thinks they are rich.
      One more time, what is Carter’s $$$ plan ?

  7. Three Jack says:

    H.O.P.E. is an acronym for Helping Outstanding Pupils Educationally. If they intended it to be yet another save the poor program, it would have been Helping Obviously Poor Educationally.

  8. Tom in Dade says:

    Adjusting the HOPE reward for income levels makes perfect sense. I’m glad Senator Carter and others are considering it.

    • saltycracker says:

      So you are ok if he runs with the original plan at $66K or do you think we just have to elect him to see what he considers rich ?
      Faith is not a good idea with any politician.

      • Will Durant says:

        Tuition and fees at UGA in 1993 was $2,250. For Fall/Winter 2014-15 they are $9,700. Accordingly, I would be fine with the $250K cap, though I doubt it would save much. The higher the income bracket, the more adept people become at hiding it.

  9. rosco says:

    I had HOPE as an undergraduate and manage to graduate without any debt. I am now a faculty member at a state college in the USG. I really feel for my students as the HOPE isn’t as generous as it was back in the 1990s and tuition and fees are much higher. My students have a harder time paying for tuition and fees than I did. And more of them are graduating in debt than in the past.

    What is often missing from this conversation, however, is that state funding per student in the USG has gone down drastically since 2001, while enrollment has gone up. For data on this, see chart 2 on page three at the following link:

    http://gbpi.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/fy2014_Budget-Analysis_Ed_higher-ed_2.pdf

    USG institutions have raised tuition and fees to offset the continual wave of state cuts since the 2001. Also, they haven’t given faculty and staff much in the way of raises for years either. This especially the case at the four-year and two-year colleges where faculty actually have the heaviest teaching schedules. As a result, faculty are increasingly leaving for other states. I’ve had two colleagues alone who have gone to Tennessee recently because state schools in Tennessee aren’t so stingy. This situation can’t continue for much longer or the USG will fall behind our neighbors because it will be unable to hire and retain good faculty members. In fact, as I’ve indicated, we are already falling behind.

    In the end, the solution to all of these problems is that the state needs to begin restoring funding to the USG. This will help hold down tuition and fees and thus will take some pressure off the HOPE. It will allow for some raises, even if they are modest. Unfortunately, I don’t see the current Republican leadership as interested in restoring funding. Their mantra is to add more students, keep cutting, and don’t worry about quality.

    I’m pretty conservative overall. But yesterday I voted for Carter because Deal has been so terrible for education in general and higher education specifically. On the other hand, I voted for Purdue for Senate. Given how terrible Obama and Reid are on the national level, the Republicans could have run Ronald MacDonald for Senate and I would have voted for him. A vote for Nunn is a vote for Reid and Obama.

  10. rosco says:

    I don’t know whether the Regents would cut tuition or not if the General Assembly upped funding. At a minimum, it would make tuition cuts or a least a freeze in tuition increases possible. But we definitely know what will happen if the General Assembly continues to cut, cut, cut as it has over the last nearly decade and a half. In that case, the ritual of cuts will be followed by the ritual of tuition hikes that Jon Lester mentioned.

    The other option is to continue to cut and freeze tuition and fees. In that scenario, however, USG institutions, and this goes double for state colleges, would be in such dire financial straits that they would need to cut salaries and lay off faculty and staff just to keep their doors open. Ultimately, students would pay a very heavy price for that.

    • ryanhawk says:

      At the root of this is unproductive faculty with light teaching loads. Teaching is of little value in tenure or hiring decisions and teaching is shirked and passed to adjuncts or grad students. Instead of a high quality learning environment we get esoteric “research” which benefits no one. Certainly there are exceptions (usually in the hard or applied sciences) but the exceptions are rare indeed. Look to Texas for leadership on what we can do about this. Fighting over subsidies for an overpriced education is hardly progress.

  11. rosco says:

    Ryanhawk, to be blunt, you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. I teach at a state college. I teach five courses (30-35 students per class, essay exams and papers) each semester. I also have some part-time administrative work that takes 10-15 hours per week on top of teaching. And in my eight years teaching, I have always taught summer school classes. I have a Ph.D. and yet make less per year than a buddy of mine who teaches at the nearest high school with an M.A. and only one more year of teaching experience than me. Oh, and he gets summers off, which I most certainly do not.

    What I have described is unfortunately fairly common at many USG state colleges and four-year institutions, which of course is why faculty are beginning to leave for other states. Most faculty don’t teach at UGA, GSU or GA Tech, nor do they have anything approaching a light teaching load, unless of course you would like to argue that high school teachers have it even easier than most USG faculty.

  12. saltycracker says:

    We have no clue on Carters income restrictions but the Republicans can tweak their plan:

    1, change the GPA scale on vo-tech schools
    And identify fair guidelines to encourage the numbers – pay all or the extra $ on successful completion (eye on bs student loans)

    2. Require some level of community hours (see Florida plan)

  13. rosco says:

    Ryanhawk,

    I don’t aspire to a life of research. I enjoy teaching and am fine with a heavy teaching load, although I can’t go forever without a raise (I’m making less accounting for inflation than in 2008). More importantly, I resent the notion that most USG faculty are underworked and overpaid when the opposite is the case at state colleges and your average four year school. I’m not sure how you would require faculty at state colleges and four year schools to teach more either unless you think seven or eight classes a semester should be the norm, which of course would seriously erode quality as there is no way one can assign essays with that many students.

    Oh, and if we’re in for more of the same in terms of state funding for the next several years, I guess it will be a race to the bottom for the USG. Mississippi, here we come.

  14. WeymanCWannamakerJr says:

    Back to the subject at hand, the robo-call. Like most (all?) robo-calls this one obviously targets the low information voters and though it may not be politics at its most vile level, it is negative spin high enough to achieve an escape velocity from the truth. First we are told that Carter “wants to eliminate the Hope Scholarship for thousands of middle class families.” With no mention of income levels he proposed or that this was a failed proposal from the past. Then we get a succession of “eliminate HOPE…cancel HOPE…shameful…kill HOPE…cancel HOPE for Georgia families…” with no qualifiers whatsoever to imply that a vote for Carter will kill the HOPE Scholarship program altogether. So it ends with “Vote No on Jason Carter. HOPE is too important.”

    Are these calls actually effective? Do not more people consider that their intelligence has been insulted or was Mencken correct regarding no one ever losing public office underestimating the voter’s intelligence? Even if elected how would Jason Carter kill the HOPE single handedly with a Republican controlled legislature already guaranteed?

  15. MikeS says:

    HOPE is a great program, but it has lead to.both.higher tuition and grade inflation. I do not have a solution, but one of the third rails of politics, how colleges spends money and increases tuition, must be adressed.
    One of the groups hurt most by this are part time students and non traditional age students. Often they cannot get hope and end up paying full price for an ever increasingly expensive degree.

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