Whaat? Hell NO on 2.0

January 15, 2013 17:00 pm

by Bridget Cantrell · 50 comments

Jim Galloway brings a quick rundown of new legislation the Senate Democrats are pushing.   The one that caught me was a bill to reduce the GPA requirement for HOPE grants to 2.o.

Are you just trying to get some media, Senator Carter?  I went to one of the roughest schools in the county and managed to graduate with over a 4.0 and medium effort.

2.0 people should not be getting HOPE, sir. If they don’t apply themselves more than that in high school, all the taxpayers are doing is giving them a free year of school because you know they’re not going to complete a degree the postsecondary program of their choice.

Yeah – I said it.

Chuck Martin January 15, 2013 at 5:19 pm

There Senator Carter goes; he wants HOPE to become an entitlement — anyone surprised?

HOPE was not conceived as an entitlement and it should never become entitlement!

Senator, it is in the name Helping Outstanding Pupils Educationally.

HOPE was conceived to reward achievement!

Tiberius January 15, 2013 at 5:41 pm

His sponsorship makes sense if he indeed wants to run for Governor. A lot of Dem primary votes there.

Andre January 15, 2013 at 5:49 pm

So Senator Carter wants to offer an academic scholarship, designed to keep Georgia’s best and brightest in this state, to “C” students?!?

Question: how many “C” students would even get accepted into one of Georgia’s premier colleges with a 2.0 GPA. My GPA in high school was 3.45, and I didn’t even get accepted into UGA. That was 10 years ago. A 2.0 GPA won’t even get you a courtesy letter of rejection at some schools in this state.

seekingtounderstand January 15, 2013 at 10:36 pm

Andre you know that Obamacare requires race quotas in all colleges that receive federal funding. Its 1/3 black, 1/3 white/asian and 1/3 hispanics.
They have been planning on using the take over of student lending to enforce it.

Napoleon January 16, 2013 at 9:55 am

That would be impossible to achieve, unless we eliminated a lot of college and universities and shrunk student class size. As only 12% of the population is black, you cannot possible have 1/3 of students black. Also, what about other minorities? 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 Hispanic and 1% Asian, Native American, other?

seekingtounderstand January 16, 2013 at 10:53 am

checked your figures lately?

Stefan January 16, 2013 at 2:31 pm

are you being serious?

drjay January 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm

“they” may or may not be taking over student lending or whatever, but there is no way they are going to require 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 “race quotas” in all colleges that receive federal funding, there are states in the union in which such ratios would literally be impossible and there are a slew of hbcu’s that the obama admin will not go down as the folks that altered their histoical mission by forcing them to no longer be “historically black”…

kyleinatl January 18, 2013 at 9:50 am

Strange, I had the exact same GPA in High School and I got accepted to UGA at the exact same time more or less. Interesting…

Andre January 18, 2013 at 10:27 am

Yeah, I stopped trying to figure that out. I scored two 3s and a 4 on my AP exams. I had extracurricular activities coming out the wazoo. But I didn’t get accepted into UGA.

I don’t worry about it too much anymore. I’m proud to have attended Georgia State University.

willdriggers January 15, 2013 at 7:49 pm

This post is shockingly inaccurate and irresponsible.

It is apparent that neither you, nor any of the commenters, understand the distinction between the HOPE Scholarship and the HOPE Grant.
The HOPE Scholarship, which provides funding for students attending colleges and universities, will not be altered by Senator Jason Carter’s proposal.

Carter’s proposal, concerning the HOPE Grant, impacts only those students that are attending technical schools. The HOPE Grant is a cost efficient investment in the economic prosperity of Georgia. An educated workforce is the most effective way to lure both new and established businesses to the state.

The HOPE Scholarship and the HOPE Grant are two very different programs. They have been for over 20 years. They are used to attract different types of students for different reasons. The Grant has to be preserved as a means to economic security. Conflating the two programs and then citing anecdotal evidence alone to attack Carter is an alarming deviation from the usual substance on this blog.

Bridget Cantrell January 15, 2013 at 8:02 pm

A C is a C is a C.

“But Bridget, it’s technical schools.”

“Oh, so what you’re saying is that you want to pay full tuition for C students to operate heavy machinery instead of click a mouse? Gotcha.”
http://www.gsfc.org/Main/publishing/pdf/2011/2012-HOPE-Grant.pdf (pg 5 Overview)

How about this – how about we pay their joint enrollment in full while they’re making B’s in high school vocational classes?

Bill Dawers January 15, 2013 at 10:29 pm

You’re right that a 2.0 is a C. Exactly a C.

If students are taking ambitious programs and classes and have teachers who grade fairly, there’s nothing wrong with working hard and getting a significant number of Cs. A student with half Bs and half Cs would have a GPA of 2.5. Is that a “C student”?

I routinely see students lose HOPE who are averaging straight Bs and then drop below 3.0 with a single C. I would agree that 2.0 is a low bar, but 3.0 is a higher bar than many seem to realize. One really bad year in high school or in college can be almost impossible to make up for.

mpierce January 16, 2013 at 5:06 am

Unlike the HOPE Scholarship Program, students are not required to graduate from high school with a specific grade point average.

That student with a single ‘C’ can get back to 3.0 with a single ‘A’ and can regain HOPE Grant eligibility.

Bill Dawers January 16, 2013 at 10:36 am

Getting that A can be more elusive than many think, especially for students who are taking demanding, competitive majors.

Bridget Cantrell January 16, 2013 at 11:04 am

Hogwash. I took both AP college prep and four years of vocational classes in high school receiving stamps for both curriculums on my diploma – then went to an engineering school. Tell someone who doesn’t know it can be done with relative ease.

The A is there if you want it. The B is there if you try. The C is there if you show up and study through osmosis.

jbgotcha January 16, 2013 at 2:07 pm

All you are doing here is taking your personal experience and applying it to everyone. Good for you in getting such good grades. You shouldn’t be so dismissive of other points of view. Some students are raising children and working while going to school, which could impact grades. Some people aren’t as academically inclined as you might be, and can’t make straight A’s with “relative ease.”

Andre January 16, 2013 at 4:20 pm

That is exactly the point. Making straight As is difficult. It takes hard work and dedication. The HOPE scholarship rewards the hard work of Heorgia high school graduates who excelled academically. Lowering the eligibility standards for HOPE insults those high school grads who made the As and Bs. HOPE is for outstanding pupils, not average C students.

mpierce January 16, 2013 at 11:37 am

If you can’t manage to get a single ‘A’, maybe you are not the “Outstanding Pupil” that this aid was meant for and you should find another funding source.

willdriggers January 15, 2013 at 11:15 pm

I’m not really even sure where to begin with this jumbled mess. I guess I’ll start with pointing out that the students that would benefit from this change are, in large part, not C students. This expansion would benefit all students with a GPA between 2.0 and 2.9. Is a student with a 2.8 GPA, indicating many more B’s than C’s, a C student?

Also, while the HOPE Grant pays a great deal of a technical student’s tuition, it does not fully fund it. Further, at the very most, the HOPE Grant pays $900 per semester. Given that most technical schools offer 1 year and 2 year programs, it stands to reason that the program will only have to provide between $1,800 and $3,600 to fully educate these students. The average HOPE Scholarship recipient at UGA gets $4,921 a semester. Given that all of UGA’s bachelor programs require at least 4 years of study, the program must pay $39,368 to educate these kids. So, it’s roughly 10 times more expensive to educate a kid at UGA than at a technical/trade school.

Given this monumental discrepancy, the students coming out of UGA must be making a lot more money, right? Wrong. The average trade school graduate now makes $37,000 a year. Whereas, the average recent UGA graduate makes $44,000 a year.

Additionally, technical school students graduate nearly 60% of the time. The overall graduation rate at UGA hovers at around 75%.

Another important point to remember: the tuition rates at technical schools has gone up 13% since the HOPE cuts. Not only is the funding drying up, it is becoming increasingly unlikely that technical school students will be able to afford to pay their own way through school.

If Georgians want to see our state realize its full economic potential, I suggest doing a little research. Simple cost-benefit analysis illustrates that it is at least as beneficial to our state to send B/C students to trade school as it is to send the “best and brightest” to Georgia Tech and UGA. A meager investment of $3,600 could mean the difference between a person that collects TANF or food stamps and a person that actually pays a substantial amount in state and federal income taxes. Frankly, it would be negligent and incredibly shortsighted not to make this investment in our future. As a state that already collects a dreadfully low amount of tax revenue, it seems illogical to cut off a hefty chunk of the population from becoming contributing members of society.

Bridget Cantrell January 16, 2013 at 12:37 am

Will,

Easy question: Where do you propose the money comes from to expand this aide since, as you note above, funding is drying up?

Rambler14 January 16, 2013 at 7:47 am

Ya know, there’s this crazy idea to build a casino at Underground Atlanta.

mpierce January 16, 2013 at 4:51 am

it seems illogical to cut off a hefty chunk of the population from becoming contributing members of society.

1) People can become contributing members of society without a college education.
2) It is possible to pay for one’s own education through scholarships/grants/loans/work.

saltycracker January 15, 2013 at 7:55 pm

– A bill to reduce GPA requirement for HOPE grants to 2.0. Sponsor: Jason Carter of Decatur;

– A prohibition on the use of handheld devices while driving. Horacena Tate of Atlanta;

You can’t make this stuff up – Carter from Decatur gets an F for his paper and Ms Ho in Atlanta, no handhelds while driving,………never mind…. :)

The Last Democrat in Georgia January 15, 2013 at 8:44 pm

“Are you just trying to get some media, Senator Carter?”

….Uh, yeah…All that talk of Carter being future gubernatorial material is finally starting to get his head. Also, Carter is probably trying to get a jump start on Kasim Reed, who himself has been the subject of much talk about a run for statewide office, by pandering to all of the underachievers that the ‘Crats are counting on to make up their loyal base of voters in future elections.

” 2.0 people should not be getting HOPE, sir. If they don’t apply themselves more than that in high school, all the taxpayers are doing is giving them a free year of school because you know they’re not going to complete a degree.”

I completely disagree. HOPE shouldn’t be reserved for only intellectually elitist snobs who routinely apply themselves, work their butts off through high school and finish at and/or near the top of their class. Oh contraire, HOPE standards should be lowered dramatically so that anyone that can simply count to 10 (okay, 9) should be able to easily qualify.

Heck, I honestly don’t think that Carter goes far enough in wanting to lower the minimum standards. Instead of just barely lowering the GPA requirement for a HOPE grant to a lofty 2.0, I say that Carter and the Dems should be trying the lower the minimum requirement to 0.2. That’s right, just show up to school, write your name on the paper and try not to drool on the desk when sleeping during class (on the days that you choose to actually show up for class) and the citizens of Georgia will give you a full-ride scholarship for 150% of the cost of your education (the 50% extra is for illegal drugs, alcohol, contraception, etc so that underachieving students can fully enjoy their college experience at great expense to the taxpayers for the very-brief time that they will be there) :)

Seriously though….If the HOPE scholarship can’t even fund the higher educations of those who finish at or near the top of their class, just how in the heck is the HOPE scholarship supposed to pay for mediocre “C” average students? This is clearly nothing more than a desperate publicity stunt designed to pander to the moochers whom Democrats are trying to solidify as the base of a flat-lined party which has become almost completely inconsequential to Georgia politics through their own accord.

seekingtounderstand January 15, 2013 at 10:28 pm

Republicans the Georgia technical schools are full of hispanic students, so this is a political move to futher blame you has bad people and court votes once amnesty is given.

Nixonstheone January 15, 2013 at 8:53 pm

That apple didn’t fall far

Baker January 15, 2013 at 9:08 pm

Disappointing. I was absolutely on board with an income cap of some level. An income cap would’ve put at least some downward pressure on tuition costs. This however is insane. No way this goes anywhere. I don’t even think most Dems would support this.

Romegaguy January 15, 2013 at 9:21 pm

Income cap AND eliminate private colleges from getting HOPE Scholarship funds.

James January 15, 2013 at 10:29 pm

God forbid we get a few more kids educated in this state. Comments like this reflect why Georgia’s educational system is piss-poor.

seekingtounderstand January 15, 2013 at 10:32 pm

James I think it was a democrat control school systems that decided to cheat students.
Atlanta Public Schools.

The Last Democrat in Georgia January 15, 2013 at 10:42 pm

There’s nothing wrong with educating “a few more kids”, but if we’re already having trouble barely attempting to fund HOPE at current levels for higher-achieving students, just who in the heck is going to pay the additional costs to fund the program for average students?

Andre January 15, 2013 at 10:53 pm

James, I became eligible for HOPE because, in high school, I took AP courses; I took Honors courses and I made As or Bs in those courses. Lowering the GPA to become HOPE eligible is an insult to me and an insult to every other HOPE scholar since the program’s inception. Lowering the GPA criteria suggests strongly that instead of working to produce more students with 3.0 GPAs, Democrats are saying the standard should be lowered.

How exactly is that rewarding hard work and academic achievement?

Bridget Cantrell January 15, 2013 at 11:10 pm

Truth, Andre.

James, every kid playing on the teeball team shouldn’t get a participation trophy. The winning team gets a Winner’s trophy. A winning student gets a Winner’s scholarship. Junior needs to practice ball a little more or crack a book a little more if he expects to be rewarded.

Expect and demand more out of our kids today – not less. This just says, “Bar too high? No problem – let’s lower it.”

You’re leaving a legacy of atrophy.

willdriggers January 15, 2013 at 11:24 pm

So at 18, high shool kids are branded eternally as losers? I know this might come as a shock to you, but there are a lot of kids who don’t do well in high school. In your estimation, it would be better to let these kids flounder through life, never finding adequate employment? Brilliant.

James January 15, 2013 at 11:45 pm

Yes, because its always awesome to have a lot of poor + uneducated people around. Wait, we already have that — it’s called Georgia.

The Last Democrat in Georgia January 16, 2013 at 12:07 am

In life, there are winners and there are losers. At least the HOPE gives students an opportunity at a fully-funded post-secondary education if they achieve a 3.0 GPA.

Giving students a shot at a 100% funded, or even a 90% funded post-secondary education is exceedingly generous as not many states offer that kind of generous subsidy of a post-secondary education.

Nothing unfair about it as there is only so much taxpayer funding to go around and anyone who gets a 3.0 GPA is eligible.

What the heck is so unfair about over 90% of your post-secondary education being paid for if one achieves a 3.0 GPA? Sounds like one heck of an opportunity to me!

Andre January 16, 2013 at 12:39 am

Allow me to cite the Constitution of the State of Georgia.

Article VIII, Section 1, paragraph one reads, “The provision of an adequate public education for the citizens shall be a primary obligation of the State of Georgia. Public education for the citizens prior to the college or postsecondary level shall be free and shall be provided for by taxation.”

The State of Georgia is only obligated to provide an adequate education to its citizens. That is grades K through 12. That is what Democrats Joe Frank Harris, Zell Miller, Tom Murphy and Mike Bowers signed off on in March, 1983.

The HOPE scholarship program was not designed to obligate the State of Georgia to provide its citizens with an education at the post-secondary level. It was designed to provide Georgia’s best and brightest students with a merit-based scholarship so they would choose a Georgia college or university instead of leaving the state.

The HOPE scholarship is an academic scholarship. It even says so in its title — Helping Outstanding Pupils Educationally. It rewards outstanding pupils for excelling academically. It rewards outstanding pupils who took the Advanced Placement courses; the outstanding pupils who took the Honors courses; the outstanding pupils who worked hard; the outstanding pupils who earned a 3.0 GPA or better after four years in high school.

A 3.0 GPA or better is outstanding. A 2.0 GPA is merely average. A 3.0 GPA or better is worthy of receiving the HOPE scholarship. A 2.0 GPA isn’t even worthy of admission into the three largest universities in Georgia (UGA, Georgia Tech and Georgia State), where the average GPA for an incoming freshman in 2012 was between 3.2 and 4.07.

The Last Democrat in Georgia January 15, 2013 at 11:57 pm

Just like the first poster on this entry, Chuck Martin, stated up above, the intention of HOPE “is in its name, Helping Outstanding Pupils Educationally…HOPE was conceived to reward achievement!”

HOPE wasn’t created to give entitlements, handouts or hand-downs to mediocre students, HOPE was created to help “Outstanding Pupils” as in giving a “hand-up” to definitively above-average and standout students who put in the work and excel in the classroom.

If those high school kids don’t want to be “branded eternally as losers” at 18 and “flounder through life” after high school, then they have to make the choice to apply themselves if they want a shot at HOPE funding after high school.

…To the victor goes the spoils, that’s life. If they want to win, they’ll have to put in the work like anyone else and not expect anyone to hand it to them on a silver platter.

Bridget Cantrell January 16, 2013 at 12:34 am

Tech school enrollment is up 30% from FY08 and the largest increase in enrollment (42%) was in the 36yo and older crowd. (pg 4 https://tcsg.edu/download/Fast_Facts_2012.pdf). The time in someone’s life in which they choose to dig down and educate themselves is a moot point.

You’ll see the smallest increase (10%) was in the Under 21 crowd. Look – I get that we need to market vocational training better in our middle schools and high schools. I just don’t think lowering the grade standard is the way to do it.

Rambler14 January 16, 2013 at 7:52 am

Who’s calling them losers? You.

Institutions like UGA and GA Tech are already wasting taxpayers $$ on remedial math and language arts classes, doing the job that some high schools failed to do. This proposal would only make that worse.

jbgotcha January 16, 2013 at 2:09 pm

You are being self righteous about your experience and how these proposed changes somehow personally insult you.

Bridget Cantrell January 16, 2013 at 2:41 pm

Your work in helping others is admirable, but more people should say it with me – “I’m a victor, not a victim.”

Look it – my dad died when I was 12, so being from a single family home is only a handicap if you let it become one. He had an 8th grade education, so being the first one in your family to go to college still isn’t that rare. It took me 7 years to get out of college because I started working 40+ full-time hours when I was 21…as a young woman in the friggin’ construction industry.

Self-righteous? Maybe. Royally pi$$3d when I hear excuse after excuse of why life is so hard? Yes, I am. Life is exactly what you settle for….I’m not interested in handing a scholarship/grant to C-performing people because there’s an insanely high probability the money and opportunity will just be squandered.

seekingtounderstand January 15, 2013 at 10:30 pm

Quotas are in the works due to Obamacare for all universities/colleges who receive funds from the federal government.
All must have ratios based on race.
Remember he took over student leading to gain control of who gets it what schools.
Grades not longer matter, its all about race.

seekingtounderstand January 15, 2013 at 10:38 pm

The web has been spun and republicans keep playing right into it.
The liberal destruction of America as we know it.

John Konop January 16, 2013 at 7:36 am

First we have about 3 million jobs open in the vo-tech fields. Also it is a growing…….Second, we could have most of the degrees done while students are in high school if we just waived college prep requirements. The above approach would help fill the jobs ie create more tax revanue…..lower coast ie less welfare, prison…….and cost tax payers less. Can anyone explain why this could not be done in high school? Remember we could even use joint enrollment while in high school……

The Last Democrat in Georgia January 16, 2013 at 8:41 am

Good points, Mr. Konop.

Harry January 16, 2013 at 1:59 pm

Good points indeed, but the higher education interests will not allow it.

PoliticalJoe January 16, 2013 at 9:25 am

I only see where House democrat Stacey Evans and other sponsors have proposed HB54 to lower the HOPE requirement to 2.0. Not seeing anything on Leg. website about Sen. Carter proposing anything. http://Www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/display/20132014/HB/54

Hope that helps.

greencracker January 16, 2013 at 2:04 pm

Lucky Yall, the Telegraph will have Carter’s POV on 2.0 tomorrow.

Comments on this entry are closed.