Let’s Just Get This Out of the Way.

I can't say which amazes me more, your naivete or your persistence.

So, it’s dead. SB 10 has ‘kicked the
bucket, shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. IT IS AN EX-BILL
!’ Now, who’s got two thumbs and told you so? I would say something smug, but really, you didn’t have to be a prophet to see that one coming.

So what now?  While more than 1 out of 1o Georgians doesn’t have a job and the economic engine of the State is ranked 2nd in the nation for crime risk, dying of thirst and stuck in traffic, on what will our enlightened leaders in the Legislature focus their collective wisdom? What will they save us from next?

The threat of paper money. You might not have been aware of just how dangerous paper money is to the “livelihood of the people of this State,” But Senator David Shafer (R-Duluth) is.

For those of you who don’t know, Sen. Shafer is one of the most brilliant elected officials in recorded history. Some say he taught the Stig how to drive, and personally writes every question for Jeopardy. He’s been out of the public eye recently, because while every other member of the Senate was making a fool of themselves over the Sunday sales fiasco, he was crafting Senate Bill 116, which would require banks to accept deposits in gold and silver, and give Georgians the option “to use gold and silver coins in voluntary financial transactions.”

Why do we need to be able to pay our bills in gold and silver eagles? Because in spite of his brilliance, Shafer has apparently not yet achieved the respect accorded his counterpart in the House, Rep. Bobby Franklin, (R-Marietta).

"Keep trying, David."

Either that, or Widespread Panic left something in the water down at the State Capitol.

105 comments

  1. David Shafer….the man who thought a bill to allow beer sales on Sunday was “too complicated”, now wants to transform the State’s monetary policy.

    Glad someone on the front page finally called this bufoon out.

  2. David Shafer….the man who thought a bill to allow beer sales on Sunday was “too complicated”, now wants to transform the State’s monetary policy.

    Glad someone on the front page finally called this bufoon out.

  3. CobbGOPer says:

    No one teaches The Stig how to drive. It is a natural instinct, like when foals start walking almost immediately after they’re born. Baby Stigs are immediately shuffled into go-karts and placed on a track.

  4. CobbGOPer says:

    What I find more hilarious is that, while the Senate thinks we’re too stupid to be allowed to purchase legal products on a Sunday, Speaker Ralston thinks we’re geniuses when it comes to gift caps for legislators:

    ”I believe that the people of Georgia, the voters of Georgia, have the good judgment and the intelligence to make decisions about caps.”

    http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2011/02/18/david-ralston-current-state-prison-bill-exorbitant/

    • CommonCauseGA says:

      There was also direct contradiction in the Speaker’s comments. He stated that voters are smart enough to decide about caps on lobbyist gifts, but that it wasn’t government’s job. Well, as we pointed out at http://www.commoncausega.org, if the viters decide they want caps, isn;t it government’s job to listen, and god forbid, enact laws reflecting their constituents?

  5. John Konop says:

    ….require banks to accept deposits in gold and silver, and give Georgians the option “to use gold and silver coins in voluntary financial transactions.”….

    Banks are failing in Georgia at a record pace and the idea is to increase the cost of running the bank? Can anyone help me understand why we need this law? What else do you want them to take titanium? Is the next step that you will force me at my business to deal with gold, silver……. We have real issues enough with the silliness.

  6. A Fly on the Wall says:

    Wisconsin Democrats: Hiding in Illinois so they won’t have to vote on changing their budget.

    Georgia Senate Republicans: Hiding behind secret caucus meeting so that they won’t have to take a public vote on allowing Sunday Sales elections.

    I guess no party has a monopoly on failure to lead.

  7. Harry says:

    It would just be convenient to cash a check at the bank and receive directly in return silver, gold, or other specie other than federal reserve notes. I don’t think David Shafer or anyone is interested in forcing banks to do it, but also banks should not be required to transact business solely in federal reserve notes.

  8. KD_fiscal conservative says:

    I guess David Shafer and company are flirting with the idea of secede from the Union again(http://www.veteranstoday.com/2009/05/01/republicans-want-georgia-to-secede/). They continually try to “solve” hot button federal issues at the state level. Completely changing the Fed and our fiat money standard to save us from the “dangers of paper money”, can not possibly be tackled at the state level, but that doesn’t stop the brilliant visionaries under the Gold Dome from trying. I don’t know if they are just trying to gain attention/notoriety or if they don’t realize “The Great War Of Yankee Aggression ” is over (as our very own Rep Broun so eloquently puts it).

    If that is the case they are in good company(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/20/AR2011022003672.html)….actually, I’m quite proud of Georgia for trying to move past this prior history while other Deep South states continue to embrace it.

    • Charlie says:

      No, Shafer isn’t trying to do that.

      He’s pandering.

      I’ll give Loudermilk and Bobby Franklin some credit – They at least believe in this load of crap.

      Shafer knows better. And that makes it so much worse.

    • Harry says:

      No, David Shafer is not pandering. This path the Federal Reserve is on is not sustainable, and David, myseld and many others are starting to realize it. I’ll share an e-mail I sent to Sen. Shafer yesterday:

      “Your bill is a good first attempt to advance the idea of alternatives to fiat federal reserve notes. We inherited the greatest country and in less than 100 years have taken the metal value of a $20 gold coin to $1,400. Governments have debased money all through history. The proverbial putting paper money in the mattress or a CD is a bad idea. Fortunately we have many other means of investment, including metals and other commodities, equities in quality companies, even our own sweat equity. It would be nice if banks could move into the 21st century, get away from being proxy appendages of the Federal Reserve national bank and start to deal in easily verifiable, transferable valuation media other than just fed paper. Maybe if they did so they could get off life support.”

    • Harry says:

      Many of us Fed dissidents were smart enough to buy silver at $12 a mere 18 months ago. It’s now north of $33 so maybe we’re onto something. Of course, anyone would be foolish to think that metals are the only hedge against inflation. When people buy equities and ETFs in large US and Ex-US companies doing business globally, they are also hedging against inflation because these companies have the talent and political acumen to maintain protected market positions, which will keep their market value running ahead of inflation in the mid- to long-term.

      • KD_fiscal conservative says:

        “He’s pandering. ”

        Your probably right, but what would politics be without pandering? This is just another product of the never-ending, perpetual campaigns.

  9. SOGTP says:

    These Bills both in the Senate and House merely requires the State of Georgia to comply with the Constitution; Article I, Section 10, “No State shall… make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts”.

    You want this folks, you can open a GOLD and Silver account and those employers with an account can pay employees in GOLD and Silver.

    I will make a bet to all of you … every 7-Eleven run by immigrants, Chinese restaurants, Korean dry cleaners, and Indian markets will immediately understand the benefit of these Bills. Large employers like UPS will jump on the band wagon.

    The only entities that will protest are banks addicted to fractional reserve lending and the inflationary monetary policy of the FED.

    • Charlie says:

      And there is is, the true motivation behind the folks Shafer has decided to align himself with.

      These folks aren’t trying to save banking, they’re trying to destroy fractional reserve lending, which is the basis for our country’s monetary system and how banks make money.

      Shafer emailed me last night saying he didn’t expect the bill to pass, but wanted to start a discussion. I hope he enjoys the discussion, but I’m thinking it’s not the one he thought he was starting.

        • Charlie says:

          Pointing out actual consequences of a bill that wasn’t introduced to actually pass, but if it did would achieve an objective 100% contrary to it’s stated goals is “acting like a Democrat”?

          I don’t think so. We need our legislators to start offering bills for “discussion” that actually do have a chance of passing, and that would address some of our actual issues.

          The Senate has already wasted enough time on Sunday Sales. I’m not terribly inclined to watch them waste more appealing to an extreme fringe who wants to end our current banking system and crash the US economy in the process.

          • Harry says:

            We’re not an extreme fringe. When trillions play money is being printed to support the unproductive elements on both ends of the economic spectrum, then the system really is broken. But I tell you what, you keep trusting federal reserve notes and dollar-denominated assets and see where it gets you.

            • Charlie says:

              And the way you protect the value of the dollar is you get a handle on the budget, and especially, entitlements, as I wrote about last Friday.

              You don’t give someone a shotgun to solve a headache, and you don’t crash the banking system because you fear inflation.

              • SOGTP says:

                The banking system will not crash. It will mend itself and the economy. A bank is just a business, like your local gym. The problem is they get greedy and fractional reserve lend and use fake phoney paper currency to fund those profits instead of good basic economic theory.

          • KD_fiscal conservative says:

            Charlie, Doesn’t happen all the time anyway. What do you thin the “anti-illegal” bills were introduced for…. Or the “you vote on abortion” nonsense…. How about the “Obama wasn’t born here” crap…

            I’m glad y’all at PP call this stuff out for what it is, but as you know as well as I do, there are political points to be gained among a portion on the electorate(a fairly large portion at that), with each one of this bills. Maybe if the reasonable people prevail it will be politically unfavorable to waste time on this crap, but I’m not holding my breath on that

            • Charlie says:

              I’m aware of why it happens. It happens because for far too long, “normal” folks have allowed politicians to cater to the extreme and the fringe, with those same pols telling us that “you know where I really stand, I just have to do this to keep them in line.”

              And that has gotten us years if not decades of hating gays and Mexicans, and convincing Georgians that someone at the state level is trying to take their guns in a state where even most Democrats are pro-2nd amendment. This has now devolved to a point where even that isn’t sufficient to prove your “rube-right” credentials, so now you have to hate fractional reserve banking, the federal reserve, and you can’t even acknowledge the President might, just might, be a US Citizen.

              This pander-creep has happened because mainstream conservatives have allowed it to, by saying nothing. It has happened because when our leaders pander to the extreme, the mainstream does not assess any consequences. Independents do that in general elections, when Democrats win and conservatives lose.

              The pandering needs to stop now. We need to create consequences. And the first step is calling out the panderers on this complete BS.

              • KD_fiscal conservative says:

                THANK YOU. Charlie, your assessment is brilliantly accurate. There is at least one reasonable person out there. This is what I’ve been saying for a while. At-least on the national level, the GOP must stop pandering, and stop propagating lies to “playing to the base”. That is also my point about the House Repub. budget, they are going to HAVE to compromise, and is going to be on some of the most partition of attacks(“cuts”), if they don’t we are going to see bad things for the Republican party in 2012, we all know how the last “Gov’t shutdown” ended for us.

                Also, the type of bigotry it takes to be considered a “conservative” around here it despicable. This is why I, as well as many others, are becoming increasing wary of continuing to support a party that sometimes gives off such a negative vibe. Its gotten to the point where even Reagan would be considered a “liberal” on some issues(did you hear his “liberal talk” on mesicans). Now-a-days everyone is “RINO” and no one is “conservative enough.” When someone like Isakson is considered a RINO there is a major problem.

                The thing is even good people, politicians who I know personally, who I know to be overall good people, are doing this. It seems like misleading statements must be made to bring in types certain people, if not you are destined to lose. We saw that happen in the GA Repub. Gov. primary, as well as other primaries across the nation.

                As many long time PP followers have said in the past, Charlie run, run, run. I for one will be one of the first to support your campaign.

              • Harry says:

                You shouldn’t believe your own propaganda. But if you do, at least leave the rest of us out of it, and don’t interfere with our freedom to make our own financial choices.

              • bowersville says:

                Independents do that in general elections, when Democrats win and conservatives lose.

                Which is exactly why I remain an independent. Except I’ll take it a step further. It should be obvious to all, including the legislators introducing this absurdity, that the general elections for most Georgians will be determined in the Republican primaries. Yet the elected Republicans not only continue to pander to the extreme elements, they have increased the pandering exponentially. As this idiotic pandering accelerates, the more the real issues facing Georgia are ignored. That failure to recognize or address the real issues will not be quickly forgotten. As voter frustration grows over real issues Republicans not used to facing opposition may find their chances of facing opposition in the primaries equally exponentially increased.

              • SOGTP says:

                Charlie … you are so wrong. No one hates gays, we’re just tired of gays shoving their gayness down our throats. We don’t hate Mexicans, we hate illegal immigrants whether they’re from Mexico, England, Germany or Pakistan.

                At one point in our history there was no requirement to get a license to carry a gun. We could buy one from anyone selling them and take it with us anywhere we wanted. There was less crime.

                Fractional reserve banking causes malinvestment, because its fake phoney money and banks lend just to boost their balance sheets. This causes banks to over lend and make bad lending decisions, which leads to bank failures.

                The FED prints money to pay for big government, a government that would otherwise not be big because its unaffordable. When you print money and put it into the system that is by definition inflationary. Inflation occurs when too much money in the system.

                  • KD_fiscal conservative says:

                    “there was no requirement to get a license to carry a gun”
                    But then the illegal mesicans, and mentally deranged queers that want to shove gay objects down your throat, would be able to gets guns as well….you wouldn’t want that….. would you Bill???

                • John Konop says:

                  ….Fractional reserve banking causes malinvestment, because its fake phoney money and banks lend just to boost their balance sheets. This causes banks to over lend and make bad lending decisions, which leads to bank failures…..

                  What do you think would happen to values like homes, cars, businesses…..if we went back to the gold standard? And if business and consumers cannot get leverage what do you think would happen to most jobs? You do understand you are calling for an Armageddon style solution? The problem with ideologues is the lack of dealing with reality over what they feel about an issue.

                  ….We don’t hate Mexicans, we hate illegal immigrants whether they’re from Mexico, England, Germany or Pakistan…..

                  Most rational people are for immigration reform that helps control the boarders better and cleans up the issues surrounding illegal immigration. But why would you ‘hate’ people just trying to feed their families? It is very bizarre that so called Christian conservatives like you are so full of ‘hate’ when Jesus was about spreading love.

  10. Harry says:

    You guys idea of what are the “real issues” may be different from many of the rest of us. You don’t get to define the “real issues”, except in your own mind.

    • Charlie says:

      That’s the beauty of this country Harry. Each one of us gets to decide what “real issues” are for ourselves.

      And by mainstream conservatives sitting quiet for too long, we’ve allowed those catering to fear, bigotry, and witch doctor economics to re-define conservatism and what the issues are.

      Consider this thread a small step in some of us attempting to take the issues back.

    • bowersville says:

      You might as well get used to it. The Georgia Democrats were used to it for 150 years. The voters will determine the issues, not you or I. The voters. Gold and silver usage at a bank doesn’t resolve the economic, failing banks, lack of water, education, transportation, health care, pensions, Social Security, budget shortfalls and in general just feeling like things are going to be better. You want to trade in gold and silver, try a broker or your local pawn shop.

      Ronald Reagan inspired folks, this crap is depressing.

        • bowersville says:

          No , hope for a better future is inspiring. Hope for better economic conditions is inspiring. What’s depressing is the pandering to the gold standard folks.

          Gold and silver is traded as a commodity. Land in my lifetime had a continuing worth and an expectation as a hedge on inflation. In recent history in Georgia land has been just like gold and silver, traded as a commodity using borrowed money and you see where we are today. So feel free to trade your gold and silver as a commodity, just don’t force your commodity trading on the rest of us as was done to land owners not involved in the commodity trading of land.

  11. MSC says:

    Fractional money creates no wealth, but it does decrease the purchasing power of the money already in existence, which producers have previously earned by labor and production. This is a form of theft. To support fractional money is to support theft.

    People depend on production. Fractional money produces nothing. No new resources exist because a quantity of fractional money is created. People don’t eat, wear or find shelter in paper money.

    Some argue there is not enough commodity “money” to support our economy. This is a false claim and suitable for those who accept propaganda and useful to those who understand how to use the paper money system to claim the labor and production of other people.

    Keynes is the chief advocate or poster boy for this paper money system we have. He explained its purpose in 1919 in his book The Economic Consequences of the Peace:

    “Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to destroy the capitalist system was to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some… Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.”

    Another old banker once rightly said:

    “The few who understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors that there will be no opposition from that class. The great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages will bear its burden without complaint.”

    Fractional money is simply a sophisticated form of plunder. If fractional money is good for the country on its own merits, stop wasting bits and bytes with ad hominem blather. Make the case.

    Begin by proving that fractional money does not systematically cause theft, benefiting the few at the expense of the many, or by presenting your case for supporting theft.

    “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816

    • John Konop says:

      MSC & SOGTP,

      Back to the real world, what do you think would happen to the values of homes, businesses…..if we follow your logic? Do you not understand you are calling for a collapse of the economy worse than the depression?

      What people like you fail to understand is the plan has already taken off. And you guys calling for an end of leverage is like saying the only way to land the plan is to jump out with no parachute.

      • MSC says:

        John,

        How will the value of my home or business change?

        Which properties or attributes of my house or business will be different?

        Two other points you have conveyed:

        1. You favor systemic theft.
        2. You believe that continuing on this path will lead us to recovery and prosperity, which happens to be exactly the opposite outcome discernable from math, reason, logic, history and current events.

        • John Konop says:

          …..How will the value of my home or business change?….

          1) Over 95 % of houses, Businesses…. are sold on leverage, if you take the leverage out the value will drop at the rate you remove the leverage.
          2) Most business directly or in directly live on the leverage for inventory, growth…….
          3) Leverage is also used for the majority of consumable products ie cars, electronic products……
          4) Since you removed the leverage your pay would drop at the same rate which would also create massive defaults, less consumption……….

          Do you understand you eliminate that more than likely you do not have a job and your home is worthless?

          BTW what I favor is rational level of debt to equity levels in banks, business, personal….. Debt is not good or bad it is all how you use it.

          • MSC says:

            John,

            You stated the value of everything you named in terms of dollars, not in terms of intrinsic or productive value of the property or business activity.

            We have been sold a bill of goods wherein we pledge real property and real labor against “dollars” created from thin air. We are thereby robbed. Pillaged. Pilfered. Stolen from. Made poorer. Fooled.

            When you are robbed and the thief is caught, what do you expect to happen? I suspect that you are like other people and would want the thief to return your property. We are held hostage by a legal fiction, i.e. that Dollars have value, simply because we as a society believe it and permit it.

            The federal government will soon repudiate our debt, either through destruction of the dollar by “printing”, or perhaps by outright repudiation. When that happens, dollar denominated accounts will be empty and pledged property will still belong to the bank or government. Keeping to the current course is no solution.

            It is an error to think that the path we are on will not destroy our savings, retirement and feeble remaining economy. We have to return to an honest system of exchange, which for all its pain, will do less damage than our current path, and is a required step to restoring production, which leads to abundance, which brings about prosperity.

            Producers in other countries will not continue to hand over real property in exchange for worthless paper. Producers exchange with producers. The juvenile arguments about “needing” debt based money are the frail product of decades of propaganda and false teaching.

            I see that you do support systemic theft. Moreover, it seems you also trust in theft to bring about prosperity. Unless a businessman is robbed and overburdened with taxes, fees and rules, he cannot ever hope to have a profit or get out of debt.

            • John Konop says:

              …..The juvenile arguments about “needing” debt based money are the frail product of decades of propaganda and false teaching…..

              Back to the real world, how many new cars would sell if we did have a debt system that allowed people to borrow money at a reasonable payment to buy the car? You realize that new production creates jobs?

              Also you keep avoiding the value issue. What do you think would happen if a house was worth 10 percent of what it was sold for because leverage is eliminated? What would happen if business was suddenly worth 90 % less with no leverage ie stocks, jobs…..?

              It sounds like you need to study economics before you can make a rational comment about this issue.

              • Doug Deal says:

                John, economies can work without leverage, they did for millennia in some form before modern times when loans and going into debt were capital (get it? capital, as in money and as in death) offenses.

                The only thing is that they would grow at a snail’s pace, and even small down turns would bankrupt all but the most robust businesses.

                • John Konop says:

                  Doug,

                  You are right that is why I used the analogy the airplane has taken off and what they are advocating is jumping out with no parachute because they do not like and or understand the new rules of the game.

              • MSC says:

                John,

                You clearly do not understand economics or production. The most prosperous days in our nation have been the seasons where we had sound money between national banks.

                The value of our homes and businesses would be their actual value in a healthy, production oriented economy, which we could begin to rebuild if government intervention and currency debasement were reversed. The paper changes value, not the property.

                The idea that paper creates prosperity is false. If paper creates prosperity, why do we have poor people, defaulting debt and a failing economy? We have plenty of paper and you say paper is good for the economy…

                People depend on production, not paper. Paper money adds no new resources to the economy. Paper money simply erodes the purchasing power, wealth and savings of the working man and small business. We are all poorer than we would otherwise be.

                Can you honestly look at our boom and bust economy, flooded with paper money, overrun with debt, crumbling at the foundations, maintaining only a shadow of the real production that built us into a wealthy powerhouse in days gone by, and say that paper money is the foundation upon which prosperity is built? If so, Keynes and Krugman would be proud of you.

                “[The] abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit…. In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holdings illegal, as was done in the case of gold…. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves…. [This] is the shabby secret of the welfare statist’s tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the ‘hidden’ confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights.” Alan Greenspan circa 1965, Past Chairman of the Federal Reserve

                • John Konop says:

                  MSC,

                  You have avoided the bottom line questions. What do you think would happen to the economy if we did what you are advocating? Do you understand you are advocating a complete wipe out bigger than the depression if we do your idea?

                  • MSC says:

                    John,

                    We would begin to rebuild and prosper, as has been the case every time a society returned to honest exchange. I have said that several times. We will be better off.

                    What we are doing will ensure collapse. It is a constant and recurring theme in history.

                    Are you suggesting that destroying our currency will somehow be different for us than in Germany in 1922 or Zimbabwe right now? Are you really suggesting that being able to say your property is worth so & so many worthless currency units will feed anyone or produce anything? Think about what you are claiming. It makes no sense. The people who run the system stated outright the intent is to confiscate wealth.

                    For the moneychangers to maintain power, it is imperative that the system be organized in such a way that propaganda and social sanction overcome a person’s logic and reason. The myth is parroted from confusion or for gain.

                    Don’t take my word for it. Listen to Bernanke, Keynes and Greenspan.

                    “… the U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press (or, today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost. … We conclude that, under a paper-money system, a determined government can always generate higher spending and hence positive inflation.” Ben Bernanke 2002, Current Chairman of the Federal Reserve

                    And as I posted above:

                    Keynes is the chief advocate or poster boy for this paper money system we have. He explained its purpose in 1919 in his book The Economic Consequences of the Peace:

                    “Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to destroy the capitalist system was to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some… Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.”

                    • Charlie says:

                      So you admit that what you are advocating will cause a disruption greater than the great depression, correct?

                      Because you fear runaway inflation, and choose to opt for the solutions proposed by you and those in the cult of gold, instead of working for a balanced budget and fiscal restraint.

                      Because you somehow feel anyone that has participated in the American economy since the early 1900’s has been participating in “systematic theft”

                      A person who puts 20% down on their mortgage is participating in systematic theft.

                      A person who buys a car without paying cash in participating in systematic theft.

                      A person who puts their money in a bank to earn interest is participating in systematic theft.

                      Let’s be clear that you think 95+% of Americans are participating in systematic theft.

                      I want it to be VERY clear to all who read this exactly who David Shafer has decided to pander to, and what they truly believe and want to happen to this economy, when he decided to sponsor this bill whose supporters openly admit would cause a greater than great depression were it to pass.

                    • MSC says:

                      Since Charlie’s last post doesn’t presently permit a reply, I’ll answer his post below from here. I’ll copy it below if I get the opportunity.

                      No Charlie, I didn’t say that what I am “advocating will cause a disruption greater than the great depression.” How did you manufacture that conclusion?

                      I oppose a system that is designed to rob the citizens of this country. You obviously favor the system that robs the working people and small business owners in this country.

                      Your examples are pretty funny. When a robbery is committed, there is the robber who steals and then there is the person who is robbed. I suppose in a sense you are correct if you mean that by BEING ROBBED the people you listed below are participating in systematic theft…

                      So, to use your term, David Shafer is “pandering” to people who are sick of being plundered.

                    • John Konop says:

                      MGC,

                      Your point is we must create an Armageddon style depression and after that we will all come together and rebuild the economy right?

                      A few questions:

                      1) How long will we have bread lines, massive unemployment….before it comes back?
                      2) When most of the businesses and home values are in default, with assets wiped out what capital will be used to rebuild the economy?
                      3) Why do you think your idea will even take hold with massive unemployment and not like a hybrid Russia style KGB quasi type fascism/capitalism type economy?

                      I have a few more questions but I am interested in your answers to the above first.

                    • Charlie says:

                      Well, I see you figured out that whole “reply” thing that I was obviously trying to keep you from…

                      Anyway, my “manufacture” of my conclusion came from this exchange: John Konop asked you, “Do you understand you are advocating a complete wipe out bigger than the depression if we do your idea?”

                      And you responded, “We would begin to rebuild and prosper…”

                      So silly me for going so far out of my way to conclude that when asked if you understood the implications of the policies you propose would include mega-depression, and you responded that we would rebuild, that I concluded you’re OK with that.

                      You’re not the first goldbug we’ve had around here, and sadly, you won’t be the last. Each of you tries to tell us no one understands economics but those of you from your conspiratorial groups, and that there is no solution than crashing the economy in order to save it.

                      And yes, we know exactly who Senator Shafer is pandering to, and the policies they advocate. And yes, as time permits, we’ll continue to expand on that.

                      For now, I have other work to do, so I’ll continue to let you make my case for me.

                      Carry on.

                    • John Konop says:

                      MCG,

                      … No Charlie, I didn’t say that what I am “advocating will cause a disruption greater than the great depression.” How did you manufacture that conclusion?…

                      I thought you said you understood basic economics? If you took the leverage out of the economy and rational person who understands the basics of economics knows this would create massive unemployment, assets wiped out…… I guess you are figuring out that when you have a talking point knowledge of a topic it is very difficult for you to come up with logical responses to basic questions.

                    • MSC says:

                      John,

                      You wrote:

                      “1) How long will we have bread lines, massive unemployment….before it comes back?
                      2) When most of the businesses and home values are in default, with assets wiped out what capital will be used to rebuild the economy?
                      3) Why do you think your idea will even take hold with massive unemployment and not like a hybrid Russia style KGB quasi type fascism/capitalism type economy?”

                      1. Why would we have bread lines and massive unemployment? The growth and recovery that followed WWII came as a result of massive budget reductions by the federal government. All the federal interventions turned a recession into the Great Depression. As soon as government stopped “stimulating” the economy began to grow.

                      2. Why default? We just had a bailout of the banks. Why not strike a stimulus check to the home owners and clear their debt? Why do we have to hold people hostage with debt created from thin air? That is a simplistic way to express that we have to square the debt from banks who are making billions in paper profits when their whole contribution was a ledger entry that the borrower has to then work to repay. Its a scam and if we are willing to see it, there are ways to straighten all that out – all at once or slowly over time. Otherwise, we make the victim of robbery the victim of another robbery…

                      3. What do you think we have now and where do you think we are headed? The federal government bailed out the banks, took control of AIG, GM, sold out preferred debt holders to reward unions… Is that a free market? The Communist Manifesto calls for central banking… We are there. Have been for many years. It is a process.

                    • John Konop says:

                      MSC,

                      1) You obviously are clueless of what you are advocating.
                      2) You are advocating a bailout probably 4 to 5 times the size of the last one. Are you serious?
                      3) You are delusional to think our country operates like Russia.

                    • MSC says:

                      Charlie,

                      Good try. Again, you manufactured your claim.

                      I never acknowledged or agreed there would be “a wipe out bigger than the great depression.” I was answering the first question posed below:

                      **John said:”You have avoided the bottom line questions. What do you think would happen to the economy if we did what you are advocating? Do you understand you are advocating a complete wipe out bigger than the depression if we do your idea?”**

                      And I said: “We would begin to rebuild and prosper, as has been the case every time a society returned to honest exchange. I have said that several times. We will be better off.”

                      Surely you don’t think I was accepting the claim made by John who I have disagreed with through this entire thread… That makes no sense.

                      When I say rebuild, I am thinking of the unemployment and debt that we are saddled with right now – today. Our debt is growing exponentially right now. I suppose you think that makes us prosperous…

                      As for the “goldbug” comment, you are way off base. I don’t advocate for gold. I oppose creating money out of thin air which is bankrupting our citizens and government and undermining our ability to produce the things we need and which are required for us to prosper as a nation.

                      Your position is irrational, to put it mildly. I am amazed you would persist in making these claims when confronted with the plain language of the organizers and operators of the system. Central banking and costless money creation are designed to bring a nation into poverty and subjection. And you support the whole thing.

                    • MSC says:

                      John,

                      What would it cost for the new money to be created? Bernanke says it is nearly costless to produce. Why not pay off the people’s debt, like the people have paid the bank debt?

                      If the check was written to the people, the people would pay off their debt, the banks would remove the asset and dollar ledger entry from their books and the quantity of dollars in the economy would, in the end, be unchanged. That’s how fractional money works. Debt based money disappears when it is repaid… If we paid all the dollar denominated debt, there would be no dollars left.

                      So no inflation. And we would owe the money to no one. The Fed would just have to write it off. It wouldn’t cost them anything anyway. Just ten minutes and the ink to make the ledger entry.

                      The dollars would only exist long enough to be created as a ledger entry by the government, be mailed to the folks and then sent on to the bank. The bank would simply “erase” the new tokens while clearing your debt from their books. There would be no increase in the money supply, but our mortgages would be gone. We could pay for something besides interest and house payments.

                      The Federal Reserve would be out ten minutes and a little ink.
                      The Federal Government would have no new debt.
                      The banks would have the loans paid off in the same terms they made them, i.e. intrinsically worthless dollars.
                      The people would own their homes, have no house payment and stop paying interest, which means they would get back a little bit of what has been stolen from them the past several decades.

                      Now I know that sounds strange, but the reverse happens everyday in favor of the banks. One must either oppose both or support both… If the banks can do it, why can’t the non-banks? That is, why can’t the people have free money like the Federal Reserve, the government and the fractional money banks?

                      Why do they get free money created by the stroke of a pen and the people have to work to receive the same thing? We are plundered and taught to believe it is prosperity.

                      Have you ever read the ten planks of the communist manifesto? We use them all to the extent that they apply today. We have for years.

                    • John Konop says:

                      MSC,

                      You really think the Federal government could just send everyone a check to payoff all on their debts and this would not create a massive economic collapse? Do you bog with your tin foil hat on or off?

                    • MSC says:

                      John,

                      I’m simply asking why you think theft leads to prosperity…?

                      The plan you consider to be irrational has already been completed, just on the other side of the books – in favor of the banks and against the people. Every dollar in question has already been created out of thin air. It has already been done.

                      Why not transfer the credits for the fiat, costless paper money to the people’s side of the ledger? It’s just an accounting entry now, the same as when it was created on the books of the Fed and the banks.

                      If the Fed and the local bank can write a number in a ledger and go buy real property with it, why can’t the people?

                      Think about it…

                    • John Konop says:

                      MSC,

                      In all seriousness you are way off the reservation if you think your idea has any merit. If you do not understand how your idea would collapse the economy it is not worth the time debating with you. I would suggest you take a course in basic economics from legitimate place and that may help you think clear.

                    • MSC says:

                      John,

                      I know this may be hard for you process, but I am using an extreme analogy and context to make a point. Fractional banking and fiat currency are tools used to transfer wealth and power. These are methods of plundering a society.

                      The system causes theft and eventually destroys the society that uses it.

                      Bernanke, Keynes, Greenspan, Stamp – all central bank insiders plainly state theft and destruction are the effect and purpose. Therefore these banking leaders which you are supporting contradict the positions you take. Maybe you can sort that one out and explain it to me…

                      The positions I hold are most closely aligned with the Austrian School of economics which I have studied intensely for years. One who is indoctrinated or gaining from the system at the expense of others is generally unable or unwilling to recognize sound economic reasoning.

                • Charlie says:

                  “You clearly do not understand economics or production. ”

                  The arrogance of people who learned “economics” from a G. Gordon Liddy commercial running on 4th tiered cable never ceases to amaze me.

  12. MSC says:

    John,

    How will the value of my home or business change?

    Which properties or attributes of my house or business will be different?

    Two other points you have conveyed:

    1. You favor systemic theft.
    2. You believe that continuing on this path will lead us to recovery and prosperity, which happens to be exactly the opposite outcome discernable from math, reason, logic, history and current events.

  13. Harry says:

    Interesting discussion. My take is we’ll continue to muddle through. I’ll tell you this – I’m not long paper dollars or Euros. Why would anyone want to sit on a CD? That would only make sense if you believe most sectors of the economy (beyond real estate) will experience a deflationary spiral. No, we’re in for a generation of inflation. Spend it up, keep the economy going.

  14. saltycracker says:

    Whew – thanks guys – not sure extreme measures need to be taken to put us back on track –
    I think I’ll go with Steve Forbes – the way out is to take steps to strengthen the dollar and reverse the growth of the deficit. Now.

    “On average we have to roll over the entire national debt every three and a quarter years, no matter the financial climate. That’s a risk we should not be taking.”
    http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0228/opinions-david-malpass-current-events-budget-reflections.html

    “The Big Short” which is still on the NYT best seller list and the Oscar winning documentary “The Inside Job” should have helped drive some effort to limit leverage in our system but it is business as usual.

  15. MSC says:

    saltycracker,

    I agree with you that we need to be moving back in that direction. However, can we ever be safe with a power-hungry monopoly of force organized for legal plunder running loose with fiat currency? Of course not.

    1. What is the mechanism that permits these perpetual deficits to exist? Fiat currency
    2. If the mechanism exists, will the government be frugal and careful not to use it? Or is it certain that government always grows? We all know this answer.
    3. Are we in this position by accident, or because of specific decisions made with reference to the mechanism in play? Central Bank, Bretton Woods, August 15, 1971, etc.

    http://mises.org/markets.asp

    You might like to review the chart near the bottom titled Gross Federal Debt from the St. Louis Fed. Why was the debt flat until after 1971 when we were fully disconnected from the gold standard?

    • saltycracker says:

      MSC,

      Articles on Iceland vs. Ireland make the case for going cold turkey vs. “easing” but it is not a good direction for us.

      We certainly need to strengthen the dollar. Considering that the U.S. dollar is the de facto world currency shock therapy may not be a good idea for the world economy, including ours.

      Confidence (subjective as it is) is a big factor. And I believe that can be reinforced if we begin to address the debt. Right now I have little confidence that we are willing to take those steps.

      Tsunami’s out there are the public pension commitments and health care.
      Fully funded 401k type programs for new hires & tweaking the current programs plus a Utah type health insurance exchanges joined with a complete overhaul of the tax code would drive worldwide confidence.

      Unfortunately our elected politicians don’t have the balls to step up and lead.

      • MSC says:

        saltycracker,

        I agree with your statements about trends and steps and weak politicians. My interest is in correctly identifying the systemic cause of the problems we face. How does the worthless political leadership and the plunder actually execute their plans… We should identify the tool and treat it honestly, even if we can only minimize its effect in the short term.

        The first step in solving a problem is correctly identifying the problem and the root cause.

      • Harry says:

        Fellas, with all due respect (and I really mean that) you all are rearranging the deck chairs. Politically and demographically there is no way the US is going to reform and clean up our act. It’s too late. Our best-case model from here on is Argentina. Having said that, it’s not the end of the world.

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