Back to the Future: “ProLife” Deal, “Log Cabin” Handel & Roy

The internet is an amazing thing. While as of now I remain unsure, to some extent, of who I will vote for – one thing is for sure, this GRTL nonsense isn’t compelling me to vote for either candidate. But amidst my research I found an interesting article from RollCall back in the dark days of 1992. I think you may find it interesting:

9th District

Open Seat: Ed Jenkins (D) is retiring

Outlook: Likely Democratic

Architect Daniel Becker (R), 40, made waves and won the GOP primary with ads showing supposedly aborted fetuses in prime time, but his race with state Sen. Nathan Deal (D), 50, looks to be all but over.

Deal has the financial advantage and currently represents the district’s most populous county, while Becker intends to run the anti-abortion ads again in the campaign’s closing days. He has prepared a 30-minute “infomercial” which depicts first and second trimester abortions. Deal should coast on Tuesday.

State-by-State Election PreviewOur Last-Minute Look at the Key Races. Today: Ala. Through Mich.; Monday, the Rest. Roll Call October 29, 1992

Why did Daniel Becker run anti-abortion ads against Deal in 1992? Has Nathan Deal become more “ProLife” since 1992? Look, people can change. I don’t care if Nathan Deal was once squishy on abortion. I don’t care if Karen Handel once wrote a check to the Log Cabin Republicans.

As Governor neither will be able to completely outlaw abortion or legalize same-sex marriage. Hello McFly, that means these are not real issues. And I’m sick and tired of hearing about them. Roy Barnes is talking about issues that the Governor can impact – and his two Republican opponents are squabbling over abortion and gays. We’re better than that. Stopping abortions isn’t going to increase revenue and pull the budget out of the dumps. Banning gay people isn’t going to increase our education system’s performance. Our prisons are crowded and under staffed, state workers’ insurance plans won’t work at some hospitals, teachers are being laid off – but we have time to debate abortion and gays for three more weeks. Have the past two not been enough?

We can either move on, or resign ourselves to at least four more years of Barnes. Govern yourselves accordingly.

180 comments

  1. galiberal says:

    To be honest, I hope they keep it up. All this in-fighting has led GALiberal to introduce a new segment called “Eating their Own.” It makes for a great show. All we as Democrats have to do is sit back, pop some popcorn, and drink some pop.

    The next three weeks are going to be fun 🙂

  2. Lady Thinker says:

    Ron.

    I agree with you and I will make every attempt humanly possible to refrain from the abortion/gay comments and stick to the issues by posting what Karen brings to the table for Georgia.

    I know Karen can defeat both Deal and Barnes so as a grass roots supporter, I will post things she has said about her plan for education, the economy, immigration, jobs, transportation, water rights, and any issue I am forgetting at this moment.

    I call on my Peach Pundit friends to join me in leaving off the abortion/gay comments and lets do some real debating the issues for the next three weeks. What say you?

      • analogkid says:

        Here is her detailed plan:

        “Transportation is a key issue for all Georgians. Residents of the Atlanta area are most concerned about congestion, while rural Georgians need the economic development and safety that comes with more paved roads. We are one state, and Karen believes we need a statewide solution to our transportation challenges. The recently passed bill on the governance of transportation spending was not all that it could have been, but it does represent at least a step in the right direction.

        When it comes to funding transportation projects, Karen supports a comprehensive statewide approach rather than a piecemeal regional approach. She believes this should be a collaborative effort with legislators and local governments. The goal needs to be providing a foundation for our state’s future, and we have to get started immediately.”

        • Icarus says:

          The main debate the last three years in the legislature has been whether the solution would be regional vs. statewide. What Karen said in that paragraph above is more than what you could get Casey Cagle to commit to without the Chamber of Commerce providing him cue cards.

          In person, I’ve heard her discuss the issue. She stresses the need to understand what generates traffic/congestion, and it’s tie in to the economy and ability to attract new jobs.

          One of her main concerns is the port expansion at Savannah, and the additional freight traffic that will bring. (She’s very much in favor of that expansion, just wants to make sure we’re preparing for it).

          The additional freight traffic will require more freight to come out of Savannah and generally to/through Atlanta. Currently the rail line down there is a single track. Running a parallel track would greatly increase the amount of freight that could be handled by train, thus removing truck traffic off Atlanta’s roads.

          I belive she’s also in favor of the new interstate that would extend I-16 from Macon to I-85 near Auburn AL, which would provide a route for traffic to cross Georgia without having to come to/thru Atlanta.

          Better/Alternate transportation corridors in rural Georgia mean more economic development in all parts of the state, as it improves congestion in Atlanta (currently a job killer) and increases access and mobility in South Georgia, thus making other parts of the state more desirable for new industry/jobs.

          • macho says:

            Nobody wants to hear about transportation. This election is about the gays and who which candidate voted for more abortions.

          • analogkid says:

            Icarus,

            Thanks for the information. All of that sounds fairly reasonable at first glance. The problem is that if the only way to find out what her plan is to have a one-on-one conversation with her (or read secondhand on PP from someone who did), most voters are never going to know. I don’t expect her to delve into that sort of detail in her commercial(s) or even her mailers, but her website is so vague on every issue it’s stunning.

            Also, I realize you support her decision to not appear on stage with McBerry (and that’s fine), but in doing so she missed additional opportunities to describe what her initiatives would be to people who don’t go to GOP events or have her cell phone number.

            • Icarus says:

              To be clear, it wasn’t a one on one conversation. I’ve heard her say the above/similar things a few times. The above answer was from her discussion to the Buckhead Young Republicans, if I recall. I make that point (and remember why it struck me) because she was talking about an issue that you would normally think you would hear in Savannah. When she says the word “comprehensive” (and she often does), she is usually doing that to emphasize that it isn’t Atlanta vs South Georgia or Rural vs. Urban. We’re all interconnected whether we like it or not.

              That, plus her emphasis on local control are the two main themes I’ve noticed when I see her talk to groups.

              She’s already been in debates, televised and otherwise, and will be in another one in a few hours in Dalton. Primary debates with 5-7 people don’t allow much digging into complex issues with 30 second sound bite formats. Perhaps the one on one’s during the runoff will.

              • analogkid says:

                Fair enough. I just want to see these things in writing, so that they may be discussed. It is difficult for anyone to debate her on her ideas if the only people who know what her ideas are are those who attend YR meetings and the like. It sounds like her transportation plan is pretty decent, but you’d never know that from the two paragraphs of outdated information on her website.

                Worse, most of her position statements on the website are even less detailed than what she says about transportation. Take this bit on Government:

                “For those who say there’s no more fat to cut in government, I say, “Bring it on.””
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeBMFdbZVss

                I’m not trying to put you on the spot to explain her positions on every issue; the point is that you shouldn’t have to explain her positions. These things should be readily available to anyone who wants it and asking her to update her already existing website is not too much to ask.

          • Lady Thinker says:

            Great answers Analog and Icarus.

            Macho, we gotta let the non-issues and the gossipy inneundoes go and focus on what Georgia needs. Granted the juicy stuff is more entertaining but we only have 17 days to get more voters to support Karen against Deal first and Barnes second.

            • analogkid says:

              Thanks LT. I’m trying to stick to the issues but frustrated by the lack of information available.

            • Doctor Death says:

              That’s your goal, Lady, not a collective goal.

              Maybe for 95% of these pundit pueriles it is, but not for me and other informed voters.

                • Doctor Death says:

                  You said and I quote, ” we only have 17 days to get more voters to support Karen against Deal”

                  You talk as if this is something other than your obsession to put Handel in office. As if everyone was on the same page, “We” Do you really think other than PP’s Handel has all this support?

                  Well I got a newsflash for you, She does not.

                  • Lady Thinker says:

                    I have a news flash for you and that is 61 counties and over 231,000 people disagree with you.

                    Karen is a candidate with substance, something Deal does not have.

                    • Doctor Death says:

                      I must have missed something, did the runoff already happen? Handel has not run in a two candidate race.

                    • Lady Thinker says:

                      I never said the runoff has happened. The statistics I gave you are what Karen got in the Primary. I am making it my job as a grass roots supporter to make those numbers larger and to urge and encourage all those who voted to get out and vote in the runoff, which traditionally, has a lower turnout.

          • gt7348b says:

            Provocateur – Sort of. Yes, GRTA staff supports the Statewide Planning Director and GRTA is supposed to be responsible to delivering transit and rail projects in the metro Atlanta district under HB 277, but they’ve also had budget cuts like every other state agency and have built a bus system that is going to run out of money in April and force Georgia to pay the federal government back probably around $100+ million for P&R lots they built in exchange for getting the I-85 HOV/HOT project underway (Congestion Reduction Demonstration). GRTA is also the one that spent over $4 million to McKinsey & Co (sole source) to develop the Investing in Tomorrow’s Transportation Today (IT3) which is now the Strategic Statewide Transportation Plan (SSTP) which – to Icarus, LT and Analog – does lay out several causes of congestion, so Karen doesn’t have to look very far for her “comprehensive” understanding. Also, there are three rail lines between Atlanta and Savannah not just one (though all are single track).

            Thanks for answering my question about Karen’s plan. She should put this stuff up on her website.

            • analogkid says:

              gt7348b:

              Thanks for the information. Where can I find the SSTP? A quick google search yielded nothing.

            • Dave Bearse says:

              Improvements are in order, but traffic is a long, long way away from requiring double track.

              There’s effectively only one direct route between Savannah and Atlanta, and that’s the route though Millen and Macon (though that route conceivably has two alternative subroutes between Macon and Atlanta). Would you identify the other two routes you have in mind?

    • hannah says:

      Why is it that conservatives have such difficulty keeping the role of subject, object and action word straight? Is it because they don’t act and rely on the passive voice to define them? Or is it because they have no sense of time and the normal sequence of events? ‘Tis a puzzlement.

    • polisavvy says:

      I agree with you. It’s about time that people started talking about the true issues that are affecting each and every one of us. I’m sorry, and if I offend some by saying this, what someone does (as long as they aren’t doing anything illegal) and how someone chooses to live their lives (there again, if nothing illegal) has absolutely no impact on my day-to-day living. At the end of the day, it has no impact on anyone but them.

      • Dave Bearse says:

        Legal isn’t much of a standard when many things would be illegal if a majority of the base had its way.

  3. GeorgiaConservative says:

    Nathan’s latest ad talks about jobs. Nothing mentioned about abortion or gays…

  4. OTW says:

    The takeaway from this is that Becker “made waves and won the GOP primary “. He had three Republican opponents.

    There are very few issues that will bring out the vote two days after school starts. Voting pro-life is certainly high on that very limited list. Mrs. Handel can attempt to discredit GRTL, but every time she does she looses more votes from among their 220K pro-life households

    Mrs. Handel needs to be afraid . . . be very afraid!

    • Lady Thinker says:

      Karen received 231,959 votes which is higher than your 220K pro-life households. Why does Karen need to be afraid?

  5. Doug Grammer says:

    I was active in the GOP primary in 1992 in the Ninth. My mom came in third out of four candidates and missed the run off.

    Dan Becker running anti-abortion ads had nothing to do with Congressman Deal. Mr. Becker, IMO, was not out to win a seat in congress but was out to raise the issue of Abortion. The seat in congress would have been nice, but I don’t think that was his goal. I’ve talked around the subject with him once or twice since then and it seemed he didn’t want to go that deep into it, so I left it alone. My thoughts come from reading between the lines of our conversations. Right to life is his cause. It’s fitting that he is the head of the Georgia Right To Life.

    • James Fannin says:

      Doug should also recall that in that race in 1992 Nathan Deal ran as a pro-choice Democrat who said that abortion was a personal choice and should not be a political issue. My, my, my how things change. For its part, GRTL is both dishonest and cynical. Dan Becker knows Deal voted to fund abortion. Which begs the question, why are they supporting him now? Because Nathan Deal is a political wind sock. When the wind blew pro-choice, he was pro-choice. Now that the wind blows pro-life, he’s pro-life.

  6. fultonrighty says:

    Doug, I agree with you. And I believe Mr. Becker did well in the race, considering the year and the fact that all North GA was still pretty “Reagan Democrat,” and Deal was conservative.

  7. NoTeabagging says:

    The petty squabbling between Republicans reaffirms they care nothing about what is good for the people or the state of Georgia. They only care about themselves and fitting in to what they perceive are groups with ‘follow the herd’ mentalities. If the media would stop publicizing these school yard fights and only allow discussion of real issues, perhaps the candidates would stop seeking this type of free advertising.

    • Red Phillips says:

      “If the media would stop publicizing these school yard fights and only allow discussion of real issues”

      Yeah. That whole killing babies thing isn’t a real issue. Better we be concerned about Mammon.

      • hannah says:

        A fetus is a parasite. Normally, it doesn’t kill its host. In the event it’s a serious threat, it needs to be removed.
        Reproduction is a risky proposition. By subjecting only one half the population to the risk, a complex species is more likely to survive. Simple organisms that just split in half have it easier.

        • Provocateur says:

          With this talk about parasites, I’m getting the urge to watch the entire Aliens series now with Sigourney Weaver.

          “I thought you were dead.”

          “Yeah, I get that a lot.”

    • macho says:

      “‘’follow the herd’ mentalities” That would be the party that voted for Barnes with 60% of the vote in the primary.

  8. chefdavid says:

    I am expecting an enough is enough video from Handel. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rnQCSBmudM

    “If you’ve seen Zach Wamp’s television commercials or received his emails, you’ve been misled about my record and his. I’m Bill Haslam.

    “I’ve tried to focus on the issues in this campaign for governor, but enough’s enough. Zach Wamp knows I support the 2nd Amendment. He knows that Knoxville — where I’m the mayor — has the lowest property tax rate in over 50 years.

    “He’s on record praising our family business as a good corporate citizen. He wants to talk about my money because he doesn’t want to talk about what he’s been doing with yours.

    “Spent his career in Washington, broke his promise on term limits and special interest contributions, voted for billions in earmarks, helped run up the federal debt to record highs, never met a payroll or balanced a budget.

    “Well that’s not the kind of experience our next governor needs. I hope you’ll listen to the facts and ignore his attacks. Thank you and I’d be grateful for your support.”

    Get ready for the Deal a Career Polititian Ads to run. With a splash of not having any executive experience.

  9. Red Phillips says:

    If I remember correctly, in 1992 a whole group of candidates across the country ran using essentially the same ad as Dan Becker. At the time I lived in Decatur and there was a gentleman running for the House in my district named Jimmy Fisher who was running essentially the same ads. It was a coordinated national effort to raise awareness of the abortion issue. I believe it had some reference to Patrick Henry in the title. The Patrick Henry Project or something like that. I think the thought was that since these ads represented candidates the TV channels could not reject them based on content, but if they were just an infomercial they could.

    • Ron Daniels says:

      I don’t care so much about the ad as much as I care about moving discussion away from abortion and gays to more relevant issues.

      Perdue was socially conservative – we’ve had a Republican ran state for years. If they were going to make a move on either of those two points, then they would have.

      I know I’m not the majority, but when I hear a candidate attacking another over something like abortion – I zone out completely. I’d rather them talk about fiscal policy or education policy till the cows come home – because that is something they can impact and will have to impact as Governor.

      • Dave Bearse says:

        But gays and abortain are clearly the issues that matter most to primary Georgia GOP voters who evidently zone out upon discussion of fiscal and education policy.

      • MSBassSinger says:

        Wouldn’t a better choice for you, then, be to never mention abortion and homosexuality in your posts instead of trying to tell others what they can and cannot say? Your arguments sound curiously liberal and intolerant to me.

      • Provocateur says:

        Does anyone really know what the problem is with “education policy?”

        We have continues to authorize the expenditure of millions of dollars over the years, more and more each year to placate all the “free education gimmies”, and yet, we don’t have a whole lot to show for it in terms of results for this state, do we?

        So, Ron, while you may wish for a discussion on the “education policy”, wouldn’t the conversation best be focused on identifying the specific problems inherent in our existing state structure of education?

        • Lady Thinker says:

          John Konop has some great insight into the educational issues. He has detailed them several times with solutions to what he perceives the are ways to solidify workable means to raise the educational level in Georgia. I really wish he would run for an educational office and/or publish his ideas for Georgia’s kids.

      • polisavvy says:

        I agree with you particularly since that is more a federal issue. I mean really, at the end of the day, what can a governor do to a federal law regarding abortion? Absolutely nothing. There are things far more important and far more serious for us to be discussing. Roe v. Wade pretty well secured the fact that the governor can’t do a thing.

  10. fishtail says:

    Meanwhile, Roy Barnes is having a huge political rally in south Georgia today. Seems part of his strategy is to consolidate the south Georgia vote that Oxendine did well in while Handel and Deal eviserate one another. Barnes understands that most Georgians don’t care who you sleep with at night just so you’ve got a job to go to when you wake up in the morning.

  11. I haven’t heard a peep about gays or abortion from the Deal camp lately. Just a hokey ad on people’s fears about the economy and their children’s futures. The only social issue bits I saw in the first week of the runoff were a Handel press release against GRTL, and a steady drumbeat from her Peach Pundit front-page crew.

    This strategy is baffling to me. Assuming that Handel’s vote total wasn’t due to The Sarah Palin Effect… then it was instead due to people being turned off by all the attack pieces on gays and abortion. People wanted to hear about economic issues, and saw all that stuff as a cynical ploy.

    So what’s the runoff strategy now? To pick a fight with an anti-abortion special interest group on the sidelines, and to drill a steady drumbeat about abortion votes that Nathan Deal cast back when Milli Vanilli was winning Grammys! Unbelievable. You guys are not going to outflank Deal’s right on the social wedge stuff (especially not with crap like this), and it’s apparent that people would rather focus on economic issues regardless.

    I voted for Handel in the primary, because she seemed the most palatable after Ox & Deal’s attack mailers and Johnson’ s Guantanamo crap… but I’m scratching my head over this course change. You guys SHOULD be able to beat Deal easily. So can you please quit screwing around and give the intelligent wing of the electorate a reason to turn out?

  12. DoubleDawg3 says:

    Will you please correct the above post to give credit for the quote “We’re Better Than That” to Mr. Dale Petterson. Thank You.

  13. I won’t comment on the subject matter, but I will say the premise of this post is ridiculous. I paid little attention to the 9th district race in 1992 being more concerned with the Presidential and putting Paul Coverdell in the Senate and getting Wyche Fowler out. I remember Dan’s ads for their graphicness, but could not tell you who he was running against.

    Washington can have an interesting affect on people. Some people go there and get more liberal. Conservatives at home become moderates while sometime, folks we considered a little liberal at home end up speaking at the Republican National Convention asking the rest of his party if they want to fight the war with spit-balls.

    There is also the tenancy for people to get more conservative the older they get. Churchill said it best he said if you’re not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.

    This is not a situation where just a couple of years ago Deal was running as a pro-choice candidate and now he’s all of a sudden pro-life.

    If Deal was pro-choice, which given his district I seriously doubt, he has had 18 years watching his children grow, grandchildren be born, and general life experiences to help he come to a different way of thinking. The question is whether his actions over the past 5 or so years match his rhetoric today. If not, he’s a flip-flopper pandering for the pro-life vote. If so, then it may be because over 18 years since that 1992 race, his views may have changed.

    Of course, that does not take into account Doug Grammer’s comments above that Becker may have been running more to highlight the issue rather than defeat Deal.

    • Ron Daniels says:

      You obviously missed the premise of the post Jason. I don’t care if Deal is, was, or never will be Pro Choice. I don’t care if Handel is, was, or never will be a member of the Log Cabin Republicans.

      I’m sick of hearing about it on both sides. I’m sick of everyone running around with “Holier than thou art” attitudes.

      I don’t care who GRTL endorses. I don’t care who’s more anti-gay, more prolife, or anything silly like that. Roy Barnes is out there talking about issues – and we have candidates talking about gays and abortion. I grow weary of seeing Handel rail against GRTL. I have grown tired of seeing campaign sock puppets ripping into candidates over these issues.

      In 1992 a Republican ran anti-abortion ads against Deal, in 1993 he voted for a questionable bill – and that means jack squat to me. I long to hear about how we are going to stop this great state from leading the country in bank failures. Not how Deal voted in 1993, not how Karen wrote a check to a group. Roy Barnes is out there reinventing himself and drumming up votes in South Georgia.

      So tell me what part of the premise of this post is ridiculous, the part that leads me to the point where I’m sick of this infighting over gays and abortion or the part that leads me to the point where I’m sick of this infighting over gays and abortion. Because I don’t think you read past the first sentence.

        • Your who post is ridiculous for this reason, Ron, you make it an issue by throwing up an 18 year old story, then accuse Deal of hypocrisy because Dan Becker ran abortion ads, which even according to the very article you posted, don’t seem to indicate those ads were against Deal, only that they were against abortion in general. You question Deal’s stance on abortion then versus now, and conclude by saying, we shouldn’t discuss the issue anymore.

          It’s a typical “I will have the last word, now everyone shut up and move on” tactic.

          You could claim your so-called reason for this post if this had been the FIRST sentence, rather than in the last THIRD, “I don’t care if Nathan Deal was once squishy on abortion. I don’t care if Karen Handel once wrote a check to the Log Cabin Republicans.”

          I think most of us, myself included, would agree with you. There are other issues I would like see addressed that are not. HOWEVER, you didn’t start your post with that sentence, you started it with an news story that was written when you were 6 years old. Then you continue after that to ask the following questions:

          “Why did Daniel Becker run anti-abortion ads against Deal in 1992? Has Nathan Deal become more “ProLife” since 1992? ”

          First, the Roll Call article NEVER even REMOTELY suggests that the ads Dan Becker ran were against Nathan Deal. If fact, it says the ads were in the PRIMARY so it wold be a more logical question to ask, “Why did Dan Becker run anti-abortion ads against Doug Grammer’s mom in 1992?”

          The article goes on to state that in the General, Becker proposed to air an infomercial on first and second trimester abortions. It did not say Becker was going to air an infomercial on why Nathan Deal is squishy on first and second trimester abortions.

          I remember the ads because they ran during the World Series. They were endlessly discussed because most of the media felt that airing something as graphic as aborted fetuses was inappropriate during a broadcast that had young children watching. This was my junior year of high school and, as a member of my school’s newspaper editorial staff, it was an issue we discussed as well.

          The post is ridiculous because you claim to be tired of the debate on the issue, but throw out a new attack on the very subject you claim to detest.

          The post is ridiculous because you pull out of the article accusations against Nathan Deal that are not even within the facts presented in the article.

          Finally, it is ridiculous because the very premise for the attack is an article so old you were barely out of diapers when it was written and you actually took the time to research it, find it and post it.

          I most certainly read past the first sentence. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have even bothered to comment. I would have just seen another attack in the back-and-forth of ad hominem attacks and mudslinging that has come to define PeachPundit.com in the last few months and have moved on, sad that this is what this forum has become.

          However, you then went on.

          As I said above, if your first sentence had been, “I don’t care if Nathan Deal was once squishy on abortion. I don’t care if Karen Handel once wrote a check to the Log Cabin Republicans.” I may have left a comment like “Way to say it Ron!”

          But you didn’t.

          You started with an attack and ended with hypocrisy. But then again, that seems par for the course for PeachPundit.com these days.

          That, my friend, is what I consider ridiculous. Respond how you want. I have more important things to do than worry about wasting time on here anymore.

          • It’s a typical “I will have the last word, now everyone shut up and move on” tactic.

            Hey, wait… I do that move all the time. Is that bad? 🙂

          • Ron Daniels says:

            I really don’t think you understand the tone of my post at all.

            The first thing any person should see when reading my post is the title. The title is the premise. The title is “Back to the Future.” That was a movie – my post isn’t about a movie. It is however about moving on beyond issues that lie solidly in the past, and moving forward to the here and now and worrying about Georgia’s future.

            I consider it an attack on Deal, Handel, the lib’ral AJC, and my fellow front page posters. I really don’t see how you read it as anything else. I really don’t care what Erick says about Deal’s 93 vote, what Icarus thinks about GRTL, or any of that. It makes me less likely to vote for a person. And at this point, I’m getting ready to vote for John Monds because of this mess.

            And as a technical matter, this isn’t a “forum” – it’s a blog. And I stopped wearing diapers in 1989. And I really spent a lot of time looking for that article, so much time it was in fact the first result when I typed in a few keywords looking for something else. I thought it was interesting that Becker ran against Deal, ran anti-abortion ads while running against Deal, and is now endorsing Deal by proxy through GRTL. I moreso find it funny – you never know who you will see again in politics.

            I see I’ve gotten under your skin in the past few weeks. Good luck in your election and on the bar exam.

            • Doug Grammer says:

              Ron,

              I’ve got to agree with Jason Shepherd that you are causing a bit of confusion. First, if you don’t want to talk about abortion, why are you starting a thread on it? (Yes, I read what you typed. Have you?)

              Second, you went back 18 years to find a story about it to try to paint Congressman Deal as squishy on abortion. I’m calling it like I see it, it’s a slam on Deal. “Now stop talking about what I just brought up.” said Mr. Daniels. If you really want to stop talking about something, stop talking about it. Don’t complain when people reply to something you brought up.

              “Why did Daniel Becker run anti-abortion ads against Deal in 1992? Has Nathan Deal become more “Pro-Life” since 1992? Look, people can change. I don’t care if Nathan Deal was once squishy on abortion.”

              Third as I stated before, Mr. Becker started running his ads in the GOP primary. He wasn’t running them against Congressman Deal, Com. Whitaker, my mom or another gentleman who got about 4 or 5% of the vote (it’s been 18 years.) He ran them to raise up the issue of abortion and it didn’t matter who he was running against.

              • Ron Daniels says:

                Part of my point is that we can dig around forever in the past and get nowhere in the present.

                I’ll gladly go post links to all the stuff that people have dug up on Karen, but it’s already been posted so I assumed I could reference it. I could do the same for Deal, but the stuff prior has been covered. And for the record, I stumbled upon this looking for a photograph – I didn’t seek it out.

                And Doug, I don’t see anywhere here that I’m complaining in these replies. Am I trying to clarify my position? Yes. Am I still pounding the drum I started on originally? Yes. I’m restating my points and trying to clarify my position – a position which about half of the people who have read got and the other half zeroed in on the part where I was being facetious.

                I’m going to have to start leaving a bullet point outline with my posts for you two.

                  • Ron Daniels says:

                    I don’t mind talking about abortion, if you want to drive down here or I can drive up there or we can meet somewhere in the middle and talk about abortion. I don’t mind people talking about abortion.

                    I do have a problem with everyone trying to make the Georgia Gubernatorial race about abortion and gays.

                    But from now on when I want to address that I’m tired of hearing about that issue, I’ll be childish and put [REDACTED] in it’s stead. I’m tired of talking about [REDACTED] because [REDACTED] has nothing to do with foreign policy. And that will accomplish more apparently.

                    Now pardon me while I go prepare for the election . . . I mean coronation of our dear, benevolent King Roy.

                    • Doug Grammer says:

                      There will be no corronation. There is a chance he could win, but I doubt it, and if it does happen, it won’t be in a landslide.

                    • My sympathies are with Ron, because I agree with his premise here. However, I think he’s missing what Jason and Doug are getting at. The tone of this post wasn’t: “These arguments are annoying and dumb, please discuss”. Instead, the tone was: “These arguments are annoying and dumb, please DON’T discuss”. That’s a ‘F’ in Reverse Psychology 101, boss.

                      Jason had a point, this was a post that sounds like it was intended to “get in the last word”. I sympathize, but that’s still kinda the antithesis of a front-page post.

                    • Ron Daniels says:

                      I was more or less trying to aim my comments at the campaigns, their instruments aka sock puppets, maybe GRTL, and the rest of the front pagers.

                      I never really expected to get a last word in, I don’t think of myself as someone who can tell someone running for Governor of Georgia to do. I don’t even pretend I have such lofty powers.

                      I really don’t get where Doug and Jason and others are picking up on these things that I apparently intended, and others aren’t noticing them. But so it goes.

                      Next week on “As Georgia Turns” I go trying to find the birth certificates of both candidates, their ID’s and other associated documents to ensure they really are citizens of Georgia.

      • Provocateur says:

        Ron, do you care if a candidate for public office is able to tell the truth?

        Just curious if that is a principle you might hold dear.

  14. John Konop says:

    RD,

    I agree with your post and well written as usual.This is the problem in the real world as I see it. I am looking at investing into stem-cell related company. For obvious reasons I cannot get into details of the concept via non-disclosures.

    One of the big issues that came up was location of the business. We all felt being near the CDC and the ability to leverage intellectual capital from Georgia Tech and Emory made metro Atlanta a logical location. Yet we had concerns about the potential of restrictions on research and product lines. I am no expert on stem-cell research but it was very clear from investor questions to the experts that limiting the research to adult only stem cells would hurt our profits which would make this a difficult deal to raise debt/equity with this potential problem.

    I have gotten numerous calls and e-mails from friends of mine who tell me not to worry Nathan Deal would never restrict private money research in this area. The problem I still have to disclose the issue and a wink/wink do not worry does not sell to investors or the bank. And if we do the project it will more than likely be out of state because of the risk factor. I am sure many other investors are facing the same problem which does not help promote one of best assets for creating jobs. And I am serious when I say investors like me will take our money and move it to the place with the best ROI and least amount of issues. It is hard enough to make money without fighting the government.

    I realize as with gay issue both Karen and Deal both pander. But the stem-cell issue is one that can really hurt our economy. It is time for people to step up and say enough is enough with this purity test by GRTL and focus on real economic issues. Like it or not Barnes is right we cannot afford to scare off investment capital!

    I have never been a one issue voter, but we are facing tough economic times and we all must focus on real solutions and stop with the BS pandering. And GRTL is now becoming a job killer in tough times.

    • fultonrighty says:

      Right on, Red! Money over morals. Dollars over dignity. Enterprise over ethics. Profits over principles. Bucks over all!!! Gag!

    • seenbetrdayz says:

      In the Rep. of Ireland, the Irish have in their national Constitution an amendment which bans abortion, which has been there since 1983.

      Apparently, there are people in the world who at some point actually decided to make a law concerning abortion, rather than just milking it for the potential to pull voters to their teams, every single election year. Don’t get me wrong, Red. I agree with you on the subject, but don’t get your hopes up that something will be done about it, if it hasn’t yet.

      I don’t think we should eat the Irish. 🙂

      • Lady Thinker says:

        Can we at least still eat the corned beef sandwiches served at the the few and far between Irish grills and drink the green beer? I love those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. B Balz says:

    Atlanta Press Clubb Debates:

    The following will air live Sunday, August 8

    Governor Republicans
    Invited candidates include Nathan Deal and Karen Handel
    This debate will air live from 7:00 – 7:30 p.m

    The debates will take place at Georgia Public Broadcasting (GPB), located at 260 14th Street in Midtown, in front of a live studio audience. Press club members, journalists, college students, and supporters are invited to be part of the live audience.

    Please call 404-577-7377 with questions or if you would like to attend a debate.

  16. MSBassSinger says:

    I will try to explain something in hopes that those of you who don’t think abortion and homosexuality belong in the mix of issues will understand why a lot of us do. I do not expect you to change what you think is important, but to understand why we do.

    Underlying fiscal-based conservative beliefs is an immutable moral code that says it is wrong for government to be too big, too powerful, too controlling, and that it is wrong to confiscate – by force – the private property of individuals beyond what is minimally necessary to carry out the Constitutional duties of government.

    Underlying security-based conservative beliefs is an immutable moral code that says it is right to defend the citizens and property (public and private) against outside and inside threats.

    Underlying personal liberty-based conservative beliefs is an immutable moral code that establishes what individual rights and responsibilities are, and government’s role in protecting them and not infringing upon them.

    Without a comprehensive, immutable, moral code, which traditionally and historically in the United States has been Judeo-Christianity, those beliefs can be redefined to fit whatever the shifting moral values of a people’s lower natures dictate.

    In that immutable moral code, the killing of an unborn child, aside from a direct and imminent threat to the mother’s physical life, violates the right to life of that child.

    In that immutable moral code, homosexuality is an unacceptable behavioral choice that harms both the practitioner and those who love them, in the same way that adultery and fornication are and do.

    Once we decide that we can take God’s place and rewrite that moral code to fit our image, we no longer have a reliable moral code on which our rights, liberties, and responsibilities rest. The government becomes god, and then decides – without limit – what is right and wrong, what is just and unjust, and what our rights, liberties, and responsibilities will be. We build our nation on shifting sands rather than solid rock.

    We as a nation may well go that direction, and when and if we do, the natural consequences will be another age of darkness and the loss of our rights, freedoms, and property.

    If you do not consider social issues of any consequence, that is your right to do so. However, why do you think you have the right to tell others that they cannot, and should leave “off the abortion/gay comments “? I respect that some of you may not wish to discuss social issues, but you cross the line into intolerance and liberalism when you tell others not to.

    I don’t know any conservative that focuses only on social issues, or elevates them to the exclusion of other issues. Every social conservative I know is strongly for small government, less government spending, less government control, and fewer taxes – just as much as they are for not having the government sanction the killing of unborn babies or the practice of homosexuality. I do not know any social conservative who wants a theocracy, but instead favors the original American concept of a civil government that does not inhibit the practice of religion, and where no religious sect as an organization has any governmental authority.

    However, here is an example of what secular conservatism has brought us in Georgia, and I suspect there is more to come, when we ignore the “social issues”.
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=182441

    Without that immutable moral code, liberties are always in danger.

    • B Balz says:

      Well thought out and an interesting read. While I don’t disgaree with what you are saying, I don’t think the GOP can stop society from its’ slide away from the values that made the US strong.

      Defined, immutable is:
      A adjective
      1 immutable, changeless not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature; “the view of that time was that all species were immutable, created by God”

      Ironically, the dictionary I randomly selected talks about Darwinism and that all species were immutable!

      I think that all societies see the fabric of morality stretched, and toward the end of that civilization, ripped. i.e. pre-WWII Germany had extremely loose moral codes, they were changed from the strict views prior. Germany collapsed. So to did Rome, as their morals slipped into the grotesque.

      I think that it is sheer and absolute folly, pure hubris, to think the government can stop what the people want to do, even at the people’s own peril.

      I am not advocating immorality, I am stating that trying to control what people choose to do in their own ‘castle’ will not stop a general deterioration of a society. It may hasten it as people rebel.

      What we are seeing with Hollywood’s effort to ‘modernize’ America is acceptance of virtually anything. That does not bode well for the US, we came from a puritan, conservative, hard working stock.

      That worked.

      • MSBassSinger says:

        You wrote: “I don’t think the GOP can stop society from its’ slide away from the values that made the US strong”

        I agree, and also that government cannot stop that slide, either.

        In Christianity, in a nation were there is an open marketplace of ideas that can compete freely, it is the individual Christian’s job to personally influence those around him or her to know Christ, who will then transform their beliefs to be in harmony with His, and also to influence society in the voting booth, and in the organizations in which the Christian is active.

        If you read my post carefully, which I am sure you did, you noticed that I only object to government affirming or enabling immoral behavior. As I have stated on here before, it is not government’s job to dictate what you can or cannot do in your bedroom (that does not cause potential harm to others, such as cooking meth, abusing children, etc.), just as it is not government’s job to sanction marriage as anything other than between one man and one woman. I doubt anyone on here objects to government legislating against public nudity or having sex in public, public urination, etc. I would say that in those cases, government does have a role in, and is successful at, inhibiting the preponderance of such behavior.

        IMHO, it is we Christians who have failed in our jobs such that American society has become what it is. We do not need or want government’s power to force upon others what God freely gives. We as individuals only need to do what God said we should do, do it in sacrificial love, staying immutable in what we believe as God’s standards for right and wrong are immutable, and trust Him to do the rest.

        I suspect if we are mercifully given another Great Awakening, it will do far more than vainly trying to harness to those ends a government or a political party.

        What baffles me is when those who call themselves conservatives start trying to tell people like me, who agree with them on fiscal, security, and liberty issues, that we are wrong/stupid/low IQ/rubes to also bring up the social issues that arise from the same moral code.

        What part of “a candidate who fails on social issues is likely to also fail on the fiscal/security/liberty issues that come from the same moral code” is not understandable?

        P.S. Not to start a discussion outside the topic, just addressing a point you made, but species do appear to be immutable. There are variations within a species, but we have yet to document one species becoming another. It has been postulated, but to date no transitional species have been found, nor has any conclusive evidence of species transitioning been found in man’s recorded history. So far, the example of species being immutable holds. Barring genetic manipulation by man, of course.

        • “I doubt anyone on here objects to government legislating against public nudity”

          You’d doubt wrong. Nudity does not equal sex any more than being a Christian means you don’t lie, cheat or steal. There are plenty of nudist beaches and resorts around the world (including the US). While it may be yet another lifestyle you disagree with, it’s one that works just fine for plenty of other people.

      • MSBassSinger says:

        And this part I loved (and agree with):
        “… that trying to control what people choose to do in their own ‘castle’ will not stop a general deterioration of a society. It may hasten it as people rebel.”

        Too bad the growing “thought police” and “PC Nazis” don’t realize that.

      • MSBassSinger says:

        Here is what I wish Deal would say in a Sunday op-ed:

        “My fellow Georgians, there have been some issues brought up about my past Congressional votes, and rightly so. I am a consistent conservative, and I want to address past votes that do not fit with that set of beliefs.

        Yes, I did start my political life as a Democrat. I did so at a time when the choice was to run as a conservative Democrat or a Rockefeller Republican. When it was clear that the only home for conservatives was the Republican party, and that it was beneficial to both my district and my political life to do so, I switched to the Republican party. Having been re-elected several times, I surmise my constituents agreed. I was wrong to vote for bills that involved bigger government. I was wrong to vote for “No Child Left Behind”. I was wrong to vote for TARP. However, I was right to vote for Bill Clinton’s impeachment, and right each and every time I voted for smaller government and less spending. I have learned from my past errors, and I will not run away from acknowledging them. I also will not waste your time here with a laundry list of my honorable opponent’s inconsistencies and errors. To paraphrase the greatest President of the 20th century, I will not hold my opponent’s youth and inexperience against her.

        If you elect me as Governor, I pledge to do all I can – and if you give me a conservative Legislature, all we can – to limit State government to what the Constitution requires (thus reducing spending and taxes), to focus on increasing liberty, to protect Georgians from an overbearing federal government, and generally get government out of the way so Georgians can improve our state in ways greater than we can describe.

        I will not pledge to create jobs, because government cannot create jobs – only destroy them. I do pledge that once we have reduced spending to what the Constitution requires, then and only then will we look at significantly changing the state tax code.

        I do pledge to support intermediate changes to the tax code that make sense. For example, no business pays taxes. That is a con job we politicians have pulled on the taxpayer for too long. Any tax on business ultimately, and rightly, is passed along as what it costs to provide goods and/or services. I will support the end of taxing businesses in Georgia, and allowing the free market to pressure businesses to pass along those savings to their customers.

        I pledge to fight the negative effects of the teacher unions, and aim for the money we collect in taxes to follow the student to the schools their parents choose.

        I pledge to find and push for the elimination of stupid laws that hurt business or favor certain businesses or organizations.

        As for the accusations that I have illegally used my office in the past to line my own pockets, I state clearly that I have never done so. If I benefited from my business doing business with the government, ans many businesses do, it has been because we were legitimately the best choice. I hereby pledge that if any criminal activity on my part is proven in a court of law, I will resign and take whatever punishment the court provides. However, I will not surrender to innuendo and false accusations that the left so often likes to resort to when they cannot win on the issues. I pledge to put my assets in a blind trust, effective the day I am elected, so that I can avoid the appearance of impropriety in the future.

        I pledge to do all I can to resist illegal immigration in Georgia. If you are not here legally, you are a criminal, and not welcome in this state. My primary thrust will be to go after employers who employee illegal aliens, whether as a nanny, as farm workers, or a large corporation’s low paid workers – and to hell with what the Chamber of Commerce, George Bush, or John McCain thinks about it. Once we put a few people in jail for hiring illegals, you will see the jobs go back to Americans and the illegals go elsewhere. I will direct the Sheriffs to do all in their power within the law to detain any person found, in the course of processing them for another crime, to be here illegally until such time as they are deported.

        I will do all I can within the law to protect the lives of unborn babies, and to not allow government to sanction or affirm immoral lifestyle choices, such as homosexuality or adultery.

        However you choose to vote, I implore you to vote your conscience. That is not just your right, but your duty as a citizen of the State of Georgia.”

      • MSBassSinger says:

        In this world where personal responsibility is considered an personality disorder, I can understand your point.

        Homosexuality is solely defined by the sexual acts involved. That is what is objected to, not that some men prefer the company of men, or women the company of women. That is never considered wrong. Just as a heterosexual makes a choice whether to have sex or not, a homosexual does, too.

        • Progressive Dem says:

          Homosexuality has nothing to do with personal responsibility or choosing when or if to have sex. It is not a learned behavior. It is engrained in the dna of some individuals.

          • MSBassSinger says:

            No, sorry. That is the excuse of people not willing to control themselves. When you take the act of homosexual sex out of the equation, it is no longer homosexuality. Thus, homosexuality is solely defined by the acts.

            • Progressive Dem says:

              So you’re saying homosexuality is only about sex, and it can be “cured” with self-control. You really should have a conversation with a gay person at least once in your life. They could tell you that their life consists of more than having sex.

              • MSBassSinger says:

                I have. Especially the gay people in my family. I have also talked to counselors who deal with homosexuals, and researched whether there really was any science behind the “born that way” excuse. I’ve even been a guinea pig/volunteer for a study on determining a person’s sexual preferences (for the record, I was tested and foudn to have responses indicating unequivocal hetreosexuality).

                People may be born with a prediliction for keeping company with the same sex, but people are also born with a prediliction for keeping compnay with people of the opposite sex. Whether that relationship crosses over into a sexual act is, for consenting partners, always a choice.

                I did my homework – please do yours.

                • Progressive Dem says:

                  So it is okay for consenting hetrosexual and homosexual adult to choose to have sex. However, it is your judgement that it is wrong for homosexuals to have sex.

                  I’d like to see the qualifications of your “counselors” and the source of your research regarding the “born that way excuse”.

                  The American Psychological Association, the largest organization representing pyschologists in the world, says this about whether homosexuality is a choice: “No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.”http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

                  I know conservatives are challenged by science, but the American Psychiatric Association, another group of scientists holds similar views to the psychologists. So whatever research you did, it is well outside the professional norms as to make your views, well… queer.

                  • MSBassSinger says:

                    Dig a little deeper. After science had establish homosexuality as a deviant behavior, it was a political decision. That is why the DSM still references homophilia, but the political decision was made years ago not to officially recognize it as an illness.

                    Also, you misread what I said. Since I have said all I need to, and more than is appropriate for this thread, I’ll leave the homosexual apologists to rant as they desire.

                    • Progressive Dem says:

                      So your argument is that professionals forefeited their honesty for political reasons. That’s pretty warped, but I guess it has to be that way to fit the narriative yo believe in.

            • Kellie says:

              MSBassSinger – Is heterosexual only defined by the act of sex or are you heterosexual even when you are not having sex? Also, can you tell me the point in your life when you chose to be a heterosexual instead of a homosexual? Enquiring minds want to know. 😉

              • MSBassSinger says:

                Of course heterosexual (note the 2nd syllable) is defined by the sexual act.

                When did I choose? When I entered puberty and stopped thinking girls were yucky and infested with cooties, like most of the other boys. Fortunately, I didn’t have “daddy issues” that would have influenced me otherwise.

                Enquiring minds usually ask questions of substance. I think you missed the mark on that.

              • MSBassSinger says:

                Followup – heterosexuality is normal, homosexuality is deviant behavior. While there is a paraphilia called homophilia, there is no paraphilia for heterosexuality. Thus, you question misses the mark.

        • “Homosexuality is solely defined by the sexual acts involved. That is what is objected to, not that some men prefer the company of men, or women the company of women. That is never considered wrong. Just as a heterosexual makes a choice whether to have sex or not, a homosexual does, too.”

          Then why not let two men get married? There’s no question on the marriage license form as to whether you have ever had sex in the past or plan to in the future.

          • B Balz says:

            Marriage is about money and stuff, that is the whole of it. The morality portion is a small portion, the big portion of the debate is about benefits, corporations and the Federal Employees. Bank it.

    • Progressive Dem says:

      “Judeo-Christianity” There is no such thing. Jews don’t believe in Jesus Christ, so they don’t believe in Christianity. There are many shared Judeo-Christain values. The belief that Jesus was a phrophet, or son of god is not a shared value. Ironicaly, Muslims believe in Jessus. So if you are endorsing Judeo-Christian values, rember that inlcudes some very diverse opinions about issues that are fundamental to both religions. And you are endorsing values that include the possibility of people not accepting Jesus. I endorse Judeo-Christian values, too as well as others. I just hope you realize how flexible and liberal your position is when you endorse Judeo-Christian values.

      • MSBassSinger says:

        Wrong again. Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, and serves the same God, uses the same Law, Prophets, and Writings as holy, authority, and looks forward to the same Messiah. Judeo-Christianity is a centuries-old name for a moral code and identification of God that both Judaism and Christianity share.

        When a non-Christian Jewish person (in terms of faith, not just culture) tells me they don’t believe in Jesus, yes I respect that. I also advise them, if they are open to discussion, to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and ask Him to tell them whether or not they should believe. It has no bearing on whether I respect or honor them, or can be friends with them.

        Be careful not to confuse cultural Judaism with religious Judaism. The differences in moral code are huge among the various sects of Judaism along that spectrum.

        • Progressive Dem says:

          Well, if you ask a devout Jew to ask their God if they should accept Jesus, you just insulted them.

          If you can be friends with people whose views are different then yours; if you can respect their beliefs even when they are opposed to yours, then MSBS, you just might have some liberal bones in your being. You are definitely showing signs of tolerance. I’m sure we will all sleep better tonight.

          • MSBassSinger says:

            Conservatives are tolerant. Faux conservatives and liberals are rarely ever tolerant of opposing views. That you wrote those kind words is indicative of a latent conservatism in you, Progressive Dem.

    • Dave Bearse says:

      The immutable word of God that is the Bible accepted slavery as a matter of course, and slavery was incorporated into the Constitution.

      So is slavery immutable, or are you the arbiter of immutability?

      • MSBassSinger says:

        Wrong. The Bible describes the practice of slavery, which existed in every culture then, and still exists in Islam. The Bible never condones it as God’s will. In fact, the book of Philemon, in describing the slave Onesimus, leaves no recourse for Philemon to have Onesimus remain a slave and yet Philemon be obedient to Christ.

        The whole of Scripture teaches a love for others that is wholly incompatible with slavery as it existed in Europe and the Americas.

        • Dave Bearse says:

          Recounting an anecdote concerning an individual is hardly a call for a broad-based end of slavery, rather telling for an immutable book loaded with prohibitions and directives.

          • MSBassSinger says:

            While I would love to continue this line of error correction, it is not the subject of the thread and I’d rather not put the moderators in the position of repressing religious speech.

  17. Dave Bearse says:

    Bush in 2004 wouldn’t admit the Iraq war was a mistake in 2004 because he’d be seen as flip-flopping, a GOP no-no. It’s pigeons coming home to roast on the GOP stand on flip-flopping. Enjoy.

    • MSBassSinger says:

      If the Iraq front in the war defending us against militant Islam was a mistake, you’d have a point. But it wasn’t a mistake.

      If you had pointed out that Bush in 2000 said he would not get the US into nation-building, but then flip-flopped by turning Iraq and Afghanistan into nation-building ventures after we had defeated the organized forces, you’d have a point.

      • Harry says:

        The strange thing is, Iraq has been (so far) a success story. Afghanistan is not. It’s the difference between a country with a history of living in urban centers and a tribal society run by warlords.

        • B Balz says:

          That in all of the history of Man has never been conquered. Our success in A-stan depends on the continuance of the message, “We are not here to stay” taking hold before we are broke and have to go home..

          • MSBassSinger says:

            Wrong. We defeated the pre-9/11 Afghan government. And it did not take long.

            I agree, though, that we must imply the message “our military is not here to stay” by defeating the enemy and going home.

              • B Balz says:

                Oh I agree, no doubt.

                As to MS, I respect your point of view, but to suppose that we defeated the Afghan government misses the entire point.

                Afghanistan is not governed. There is the provisional government in Kabul and warlords.

                You really have to understand that place is never been governed. There are pockets of power, strongholds, and alliances. Those alliances change often, based on who has what and when.

                • MSBassSinger says:

                  You are 100% correct. 7th century tribalism is on full display in Afghanistan.

                  However, the ruling Taliban government was defeated and deposed. What we didn’t do was treat any of the warlords who would support the Taliban as part of the enemy to be defeated, and go after them.

                  IMHO, the only reason for US troops to be based outside our country is to actively and with full force fight an enemy that presents a real and present threat to America, American citizens, or American property (private or public) until they are dead or surrender unconditionally.

                • MSBassSinger says:

                  Now that is a good point. Sure, it made sense when the Soviets were a threat. But after the fall of the Soviet Union, we should have left and let Europe handle its own international affairs.

                  Though, if history is any kind of teacher, the juvenile nature of European cultures would land them right back in the tribal wars in which they so often seem to find themselves.

              • MSBassSinger says:

                And then, if they present a threat, we go back in. There are always more peasants than Taliban. When those people get tired of the consequences of being America’s enemy, they will make quick work of the Taliban themselves.

                Nation building only makes sense when the enemy has unconditionally surrendered, and wants our help.

                Give our military the same rules of engagement they had in WWII, instead of keeping them hamstrung, and you will see things change quickly.

        • Dave Bearse says:

          Please repeat that you’re a Republican and that Iraq is (so far) a success story to as many people as you can between now and November.

            • Provocateur says:

              Right. If by “success” you mean removing the one leader that Iran feared the most, and would not be building any kind of nuclear-production facility right now had Saddam still been alive, then yeah, Bush was “successful.”

      • ACCmoderate says:

        MS,
        The Iraq war was a mistake. Bush, unless he was an idiot, knew in 2001 that going in to Afghanistan would involve nation-building. He knew going into Iraq would involve nation-building.

        You can’t go into a poor country and overthrow its government without expecting to install a new one. If you just turn tail and leave after blowing the place to smithereens, you’ll have an even poorer country led by an even more anti-American regime.

        Governments take a long time to get off the ground to work. Bush knew he was committing the US to a long road of nation-building and failed attempts to install democracy (he even had a whole speech about it and and a whole section of his NSS dedicated to it).

        Bush and the GOP felt that war in the Middle East would keep national security issues at the forefront and keep them in electoral power for a long time to come.

        • MSBassSinger says:

          The difference is when you begin nation building. The correct way, which we did after WWII, was to first give our full force to securing an unconditional surrender. Then, when the people of that nation wanted our help, we started nation building.

          What we have done in Afghanistan and Iraq is to start nation building while engaged in limited warfare. And that is why we are still there after all these years. The same mistakes of limited warfare we made in Vietnam we are making again.

          After the fact, I do realize Bush lied about his intentions, or else he was swayed to change soon after the invasion.

      • Dave Bearse says:

        The basic flip-flop was the guy even in hindsight and to this day can’t admit that the US should have left Iraq alone. You and Harry keep chanting that even in hindsight Iraq wasn’t a mistake, and be sure to thereafter mention the candidates that you support.

  18. Gerald says:

    I disagree 100%. You are totally wrong. Because of recent federal court rulings and legislation, the way to challenge Roe v. Wade is now on the state level. And the strategy isn’t a full frontal assault to overturn it outright, but to challenge the current federal position that abortion is an absolute right that should be unrestricted in all cases, and that the only interests involved are those of the mother … that the father (without whom no conception could have taken place AND who will have legal and financial responsibilities for any child is born), the unborn child and society at large have no stake and should have no say in the matter.

    In the last legislative session, some very good pro-life bills failed because a Georgia Republican leadership that took a ton of campaign money and a lot of votes from pro-lifers refused to get behind them. One of the best bills failed specifically because a GOP legislative leader claimed that his opposition to abortion was on the federal level to Roe v. Wade, and was irrelevant outside that context.

    Bottom line: a lot of GOPers lie about their true feelings on abortion to get elected. Once they get into office, they allow good pro-life bills to die by malicious neglect, or they take cute parliamentary tricks to bottle the bills up to make sure that they never have to take difficult votes on them. For instance, the people who have been running the Georgia House has FOR YEARS refused to put pro-life bills on the calendar, or they dump them into committees where they know that they have no chance.

    If the Georgia GOP cared as much about challenging abortion as they do about tax cuts, payoffs to lobbyists and cronies (some of whom they may or may not be having extramarital affairs with) and race-baiting, Georgia would be among the several states in the nation with the strongest set of pro-life laws on the state level in the country, and Georgia would be a national leader in passing pro-life laws that get challenged in federal court, making it easier for other states to write their own laws that withstand federal challenges.

    This “abortion is a federal issue, not a state issue” is the latest excuse that the pro-abortionists are using to hide out in the GOP. It is a lie when the people who support illegal immigration use it, and it is also a like when the folks who support the murder of the unborn use it.

    The GOP was even handed the opportunity to use the abortion issue to drive a wedge between the Democrats and the large population of black fundamentalist and evangelical Christians in this state, like they successfully did in 2004 with the gay marriage amendment. (Some of the state’s leading black pastors – not civil rights leaders mind you but actual pastors with real congregations – are pro-life.) They threw it away.

    Of course, I believe that both Deal and Handel are closet Roe v. Wade supporters. However, Deal is lying about it. GRTL is willing to back him anyway because he is in the good old boys club of the GOP and not a Fulton County politician who, you know, has actually represented “those black people” at some point in her life. So, I say elect Handel so you can know what you are getting – someone who will never throw her political influence behind a good pro-life bill – and not continue to lie to all these sincere Christian pro-life voters by foisting Handel on them.

    Say what you want about Ralph Reed. The guy was corrupt, but had he won the lieutenant governor’s race, every one of those very good pro-life bills that died in the last two legislative sessions would be state law right and working their way through the federal court system right now. It seems that the Georgia GOP is more interested in black voter disenfranchisement schemes like the voter ID bill (which doesn’t require IDs for absentee ballots!) than in challenging Roe v. Wade.

        • Clone Of B. Plyler says:

          Gerald, I don’t know who you are, but as one who has been involved with pro-life issues at the capitol…. you have hit the nail on the head about it & the GOP under the Dome !!

          What you are saying sounds like fiction to someone who has not tried to advance pro-life issues with the state legislature. Those issues are much more than abortion, yet the GOP can’t even get that right!

          I agree that GRTL endorsement does not guarantee the politician’s committment to pro-life issues. However, if Gov. Perdue & Speaker Ralston actually believed the GRTL pledges they have signed, you would not have to speculate about Ralph Reed !

          I don’t think that very much separates Barnes, Deal, or Handel on this issue except that Deal & Handel want your votes off of it.

          I don’t agree with your assesment of the motivation of GRTL to “back” Deal. They endorse candidates of other parties as well. Deal happens to be the last one standing of the six candidates they endorsed.

          However, you have forevermore nailed the status of pro-life issues under the Dome. I have witnessed it with my own eyes & ears. Frankly, I’m tired of it & will no longer vote for or support candidates who do not do what they said they would do on these issues.

          • bowersville says:

            “I don’t think that much separates Barnes, Deal, or Handel on this issue(pro-life) except that Deal & Handel want your votes off of it.”

            The very reason I am frustrated over the continuing debate by Handel/Deal over pro-life issues.

          • B Balz says:

            I can appreciate when advocates for a cause experience the acute frustration of adverse political reality, especially when that reality becomes an obstacle to change.

            When dealing in the non-profit sector it is a heartbreaking situation, one that demands its’ clients utmost resolve. I have seem precisely the same frustration and heartbreak for folks who realize their State is considering making potentially life saving research illegal.

            To those that feel this sort of angst, the process doesn’t seem fair. I truly can relate to this post. I also believe our process will sort out the path for us to all follow, though perhaps not soon enough for advocates and their clients.

  19. Dave Bearse says:

    The party who’s success at the Georgia ballot box was built on wedge issues is being waylain by the extreme battling with the radical. Who says there’s no such thing as karma? GOP social conservatives of course!

  20. Lady Thinker says:

    Ron,

    In an attempt to do as I said I would, I hope you will not think this is a threadjack as I post Karen’s views on the Immigration issue. If you think this is a threadjack, please let me know rather than ban me from further posting. Like you, I am trying to get away from abortion/gays. Thanks.

    Karen Handel, the Republican gubernatorial candidate and former Georgia Secretary of State, had some harsh words on Tuesday for Obama Administration as well as the former governor Roy Barnes, concerning the issue of illegal immigration.

    “A Handel Administration will say “bring it on” to President Obama and pass legislation similar to what they have in Arizona. Washington politicians caused this problem (…), it is hypocritical and unconscionable for them to try and stop states who must now deal with the problems Washington created,” said Handel in a press release.

    She then went after the former governor: “The people of Georgia deserve to know where Roy stands on illegal immigration. Does he support a state’s right to enforce immigration laws? Roy can’t have it both ways – running away from being a Democrat while remaining silent on one of their most brazen intrusions into the rights of states to enforce their laws.”

    The U.S. Justice Department filed a lawsuit Tuesday against the state of Arizona for their new immigration law which authorizes police to question anyone who they have a “reasonable suspicion” is in the country illegally, and is already being detained for another violation.

    The lawsuit charges that the legislation conflicts with the federal law, disrupts immigration enforcement, and would lead to police harassment of those who cannot prove their lawful status. The Justice Department is requesting a preliminary injunction to stop the law from taking effect on July 20.

    Handel, who was just recently endorsed by Arizona Governor Jen Brewer, is no stranger to dealing with illegal immigration issues and opposition from the Administration.

    Handel tried to enact a voter verification system, much like the one Arizona is already using, which includes verification of citizenship for all new voters. The system has been rejected by the Justice Department under Obama Administration twice, because of concerns about minorities and older voters being isolated as possible non-citizens.

    Back in 2009, after the second decision came from Washington, Handel didn’t shy away from voicing her disapproval.

    “The decision by the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) to deny preclearance of Georgia’s already implemented citizenship verification process shows a shocking disregard for the integrity of our elections,” said Handel in a statement while still in her post as Secretary of State. “DOJ has thrown open the door for activist organizations such as ACORN to register non-citizens to vote in Georgia’s elections, and the state has no ability to verify an applicant’s citizenship status or whether the individual even exists. DOJ completely disregarded Georgia’s obvious and direct interest in preventing non-citizens from voting (…) Clearly, politics took priority over common sense and good public policy.”

    Handel, who is tied for the first place among Republicans running for governor according to the latest poll, is using the issue of illegal immigration to put herself ahead of her opponents. Georgia has more illegal immigrants than Arizona, an estimated 475,000 to 500,000 , and immigration now ranks as one of the top concerns for voters nation- wide.

    As a Secretary of State, Handel also implemented the use of a federal database SAVE which determines applicants immigration status when they apply for federal, state or local public benefits and licenses.

    Jen Brewer, now a nationally known political figure, is also helping Handel capitalize on the issue of illegal immigration gaining so much attention as of late. “I know Karen Handel. She has the experience, courage and tenacity that make her the best candidate to be Governor,” said Brewer in her endorsement statement. “Karen will fight to pass similar illegal immigration laws in Georgia. If President Obama tries to stop her, she will tell him to ‘Bring it On.”

    Karen Handel, the Republican gubernatorial candidate and former Georgia Secretary of State, had some harsh words on Tuesday for Obama Administration as well as the former governor Roy Barnes, concerning the issue of illegal immigration.

    “A Handel Administration will say “bring it on” to President Obama and pass legislation similar to what they have in Arizona. Washington politicians caused this problem (…), it is hypocritical and unconscionable for them to try and stop states who must now deal with the problems Washington created,” said Handel in a press release.

    She then went after the former governor: “The people of Georgia deserve to know where Roy stands on illegal immigration. Does he support a state’s right to enforce immigration laws? Roy can’t have it both ways – running away from being a Democrat while remaining silent on one of their most brazen intrusions into the rights of states to enforce their laws.”

    The U.S. Justice Department filed a lawsuit Tuesday against the state of Arizona for their new immigration law which authorizes police to question anyone who they have a “reasonable suspicion” is in the country illegally, and is already being detained for another violation.

    The lawsuit charges that the legislation conflicts with the federal law, disrupts immigration enforcement, and would lead to police harassment of those who cannot prove their lawful status. The Justice Department is requesting a preliminary injunction to stop the law from taking effect on July 20.

    Handel, who was just recently endorsed by Arizona Governor Jen Brewer, is no stranger to dealing with illegal immigration issues and opposition from the Administration.

    Handel tried to enact a voter verification system, much like the one Arizona is already using, which includes verification of citizenship for all new voters. The system has been rejected by the Justice Department under Obama Administration twice, because of concerns about minorities and older voters being isolated as possible non-citizens.

    Back in 2009, after the second decision came from Washington, Handel didn’t shy away from voicing her disapproval.

    “The decision by the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) to deny preclearance of Georgia’s already implemented citizenship verification process shows a shocking disregard for the integrity of our elections,” said Handel in a statement while still in her post as Secretary of State. “DOJ has thrown open the door for activist organizations such as ACORN to register non-citizens to vote in Georgia’s elections, and the state has no ability to verify an applicant’s citizenship status or whether the individual even exists. DOJ completely disregarded Georgia’s obvious and direct interest in preventing non-citizens from voting (…) Clearly, politics took priority over common sense and good public policy.”

    Handel, who is tied for the first place among Republicans running for governor according to the latest poll, is using the issue of illegal immigration to put herself ahead of her opponents. Georgia has more illegal immigrants than Arizona, an estimated 475,000 to 500,000 , and immigration now ranks as one of the top concerns for voters nation- wide.

    As a Secretary of State, Handel also implemented the use of a federal database SAVE which determines applicants immigration status when they apply for federal, state or local public benefits and licenses.

    Jen Brewer, now a nationally known political figure, is also helping Handel capitalize on the issue of illegal immigration gaining so much attention as of late. “I know Karen Handel. She has the experience, courage and tenacity that make her the best candidate to be Governor,” said Brewer in her endorsement statement. “Karen will fight to pass similar illegal immigration laws in Georgia. If President Obama tries to stop her, she will tell him to ‘Bring it On.”

    • MSBassSinger says:

      Lady Thinker,

      Although a link would have been better, I don’t mind that you posted them. I read each one. I like that she was fairly specific. I wish, however, it were possible for her to answer questions from people other than reporters and hand-picked supporters.

      For example, if I had the opportunity to ask Ms. Handel questions, they would include:

      Which will you put the most focus on in fighting illegal immigration – employers (of all sizes), or the illegals?

      Do you agree that taxes on business should be removed because they are really pass-through taxes to consumers, and the whole concept of business taxes is a con job perpetuated by politicians to tax people without them thinking they are being taxed?

      If you were to sign a bill repealing the Georgia state income tax, how would you compensate for the loss of revenue, and the loss of sales in the border counties due to increased sales taxes?

      Do you think the money confiscated – by force – for education should follow the student to whatever legitimate school the parents choose, or should it be reserved for only for government schools? Is the money for educating students or employing government teachers?

      What specific areas of state government do you think are not mandated by the Georgia Constitution? Should they be eliminated by the end of the next legislative year or are you saying there are no areas of state government not mandated by the Georgia Constitution?

      If the Legislature passes a bill restricting or regulating elective abortions in Georgia that, according to the State Attorney General, will pass Constitutional muster, will you sign it?

      Would you support a state law forbidding all employers, public and private, to discriminate in hiring against a person solely because they are homosexual?

      Does the State of Georgia have the right to refuse Federal laws, such as ObamaCare, that have no US Constitutional authority? If so, would you exercise that authority?

      I suspect she would not be willing to answer these questions, and I’d also, for fairness, like to find out if Nathan Deal has the courage to answer them.

      • Lady Thinker says:

        My thought in doing it this way rather than posting a link was in trying to comply with what Ron asked, athought several posters have taken him to task for this blog. Like him, I feel that abortions and gays are non-issues in this election year or if they are issues, they are so far below jobs, the budget, jobs, the economy, jobs, education, jobs, immigration, jobs, transportation, jobs, and water rights. Our state’s issues are critical and we need someone capable of addressing them with a concrete plan.

        I have called Karen’s office several times and asked questions. I have found the staffers quiet accomadating and usually find an answer to my questions. Perhaps when you have time, you might try that also, or email her, or fax your concerns and ask for a return phone call. I really think she cares what people think and would like to hear from them, at least the ones who are willing to listen to what she has to say rather than calling her a liar everytime she says something.

        • MSBassSinger says:

          I agree that it is 100% OK to feel “that abortions and gays are non-issues in this election year or if they are issues, they are so far below…” I hope you do not believe anyone else should be coerced/chided/shouted down if they feel the opposite way, or feel they are of more importance than you do.

          What email address should I use to ask Karen’s campaign these questions? http://www.karenhandel.com doesn’t have a “We want to hear from you” link. Nathan Deal at least has an “Ask” section prominently displayed on his web page.

          • MSBassSinger says:

            I found a “Contact Us” on her website, and respectfully submitted my questions. I’ll let you all know what, if any, reply I get. After, I am only one voter in a campaign that has a short time to win a victory.

          • Lady Thinker says:

            MSBass Singer:

            I don’t feel anyone should be shouted down. I believe people should be free to post their views, debate the parts that one may disagree with, but without being made to feel they are wrong and in a no win situation or that they are stupid.

            People will never agree totally on anything and those differences should be respected without resorting to bullying or name calling. Otherwise, we end up with groupthink and that doesn’t do anyone any good.

            I firmly feel that people should be allowed to agree to disagree and still be friends.

            • MSBassSinger says:

              “I firmly feel that people should be allowed to agree to disagree and still be friends”

              Same here. I understand that those who disagree with me do so because they have heart-felt beliefs and it is highly unlikely anything I say in a post will change that.

              I respect their views, regardless of any assumptions I may make about why they have them. However, when I read posts that seem to tell me I am wrong/stupid/ignorant/dumb/misogynistic to think certain issues are important, it makes me want to spend less time on here.

              An open marketplace for ideas is good and a fun place to be, but when certain ideas are strongly discouraged, then I might as well be on a Democrat blog.

              • B Balz says:

                Well spoken both LT and MS. The next 2 1/2 weeks will have civility in short order as caffeine soaked, alcohol laced, strident campaign workers, pol operatives, all strive to outwit themselves.

                Ms. Handel will win. Or Rep. Deal will win. They will then present to voters a new and unified GOP message.

  21. Lady Thinker says:

    Here are Karen’s comments on zero based budgeting.

    The federal government is on a massive spending spree, piling up debt and mortgaging our nation’s future. Fundamental change to this spending mentality in Washington must start at the state capitols and Georgia must set the example. There is simply a lot of waste in government today and frankly, I can’t wait to have the opportunity to get my hands on state agency budgets and make the same sensible cuts I made as Secretary of State.

    Because my experience has been in the corporate world, I know that every budget should start each year at zero and that you must prioritize your programs each and every year, build your budget based on your priorities for what you want to accomplish, and realign your funding accordingly.

    Without zero-based budgeting, agencies tend to roll over their previous budget and focus on justifying significant increases. Under that system, bad programs never end. Zero-based budgeting helps foster a culture in which every program is examined to ensure that those that are ineffective and duplicative are eliminated.

    I know that there are many areas of our state government that are over-staffed, bloated, wasteful and inefficient. We can and must do better. We must put effective budget controls in place now so that when the economy turns around state government doesn’t once again go on a spending spree. Zero-based budgeting will help drive the fundamental discussion that must take place regarding what state government should and should not be doing.

    Recently I spoke at the monthly North Fulton Republican Breakfast in Roswell and discussed my experience at the local and state level in implementing policy and how, as governor, I intend to implement zero-based budget. You can watch a video here.

  22. Lady Thinker says:

    Some of Karen’s views on helping small businesses support jobs.

    Last week, I had the opportunity to participate in candidate forums sponsored by the Georgia Municipal Association and the National Federation of Independent Businesses. At the GMA forum I saw many old friends from my days as head of the Greater Fulton County Chamber of Commerce and as Chairman of the Fulton County Commission. I was able to remind them that I am the only top candidate for Governor who has served in local government and understands how governing works where the rubber meets the road. I also assured them that they would have a seat at the table when we discuss issues that will impact them — like my plan to revamp our tax system. It needs to be a partnership so we can truly cut taxes and not just shift the tax burden from one place to another.
    Prior to the NFIB forum, I released the first part of my Jobs plan. I know I have been talking about jobs forever but I believe that the single most important issue facing us is economic development and job creation so I am going to keep at it. Part One of my plan can be seen here. includes:
    – Lower taxes to ease burden on Small Business and increase state competitiveness
    – Access to capital, start up and expansion, economic development
    – Making Health Care more affordable

  23. Lady Thinker says:

    Karen’s views on the state budget.

    There has bee a lot of discussion about the state budget and how to downsize it to fit our current fiscal realities. I have, frankly, been disappointed by many of the proposals I have heard.
    We have got to budget under the assumption that state revenues are not going to bounce right back in a month or a year. Many of the gimmicks and cuts being discussed (such as furloughs) are short-term fixes to what could be a long-term problem. They bend under the strain ready to pop right back up again as soon as money becomes available.

    We need to make some hard choices and permanently shrink the size of government. It is the best way to address the current shortfall and it leaves the state with a more streamlined organization ready to give better value to our customers in the future.

    I believe we need to cut the state work force by at least 10% — excluding teachers and public safety personnel. This is roughly 7,800 state employees and would yield approximately $400 million.

    Government is not a jobs program – it is supposed to provide key services to the taxpayers in the most efficient manner possible. I cut the size of the Secretary of State’s office by nearly 20% by reducing the workforce, eliminating waste and duplication, and increasing efficiencies. I believe the state, as a whole, can – must — do this as well. Layoffs are never easy but this is taxpayer money we are spending and we must spend it in the best possible way; education and public safety must be our priorities.

    “It is simply irresponsible to talk about teacher furloughs and shorter school weeks before we have made permanent cuts throughout state government,” Handel said. “Georgia’s children need to be in school more, not less.”

    Businesses large and small across Georgia have made the tough decisions and downsized to meet the demands of the economic downturn, that is what the state must do as well. These are the kinds or hard decisions leaders must make in difficult times, I urge the Legislature to make them now and avoid more damage to education for our children.

    As Governor, I will also employ zero-based budgeting (starting agency budgets as a blank piece of paper rather than basing them on the previous year’s spending) and keep spending in check with the line item veto as often as necessary.

    These are tough times, and they demand tough decisions. If I have the privilege of serving as your next Governor, I am prepared to make them.

  24. Lady Thinker says:

    Karen’s veiws on ethics reform and transparency.

    This week is “Sunshine Week:” which celebrates and promotes openness in government and freedom of information for citizens.
    Openness and transparency are important ideals and, while Georgia has made some progress, we can – and should – do better.

    All executive branch agencies, and your county, city and school board governments, are required to provide almost any information to any citizen upon request. That’s a good thing. After all, it’s YOUR government. Transparency prevents abuses, holds government accountable, and increases the confidence of the governed in their government.

    Unfortunately, these rules do not apply to the Georgia Legislature. As the Legislature worked to create more openness within the executive branch and at the local government levels, they exempted themselves from the rules. This allows them to operate in virtual secrecy. With such important issues being decided in our Legislature, we need more openness and greater transparency, so that the public can have confidence in the decisions.

    I have made ethics reform a priority throughout my career. As Chair of the Fulton County Commission, I was a champion for ethics reform by bringing forward and securing passage of a gift limit and strong conflict of interest rules. I also stood up when no one else would to call for the resignation of the Fulton County Sheriff after it was discovered that more than $7 million under her control was lost through an illegal investment scheme.

    As Secretary of State, I instituted several ethics reforms during my first months in office. The reforms included a one-year “cooling off period” for former agency employees before being able to lobby the administration; a $25 gift limit for those doing business with the agency; and the office became the first in state government to make every expenditure available to the public via the Internet.

    I am also the only candidate for Governor to issue a comprehensive ethics reform plan that, among other things, makes the Georgia Open Records Act apply to the Legislature as it does to everyone else. My plan also continues the Governor’s transparency initiative so that taxpayers will be able to see where every dollar is spent in state government. It also makes mandatory the disclosure of travel and expense reimbursement by elected officials as is already required of agency directors. Additionally, my proposal would institute strong conflict of interest rules.

    My good friend Wendell Willard’s ethics bill includes some promising provisions and, with the addition of a few more elements of openness, would be a great vehicle for change.

    The Legislature has promised ethics reform this year, and I sincerely hope that they will make good on this promise. In the spirit of “Sunshine Week,” let’s all ask our representatives to include these common sense provisions and get it done.

    • Doug Grammer says:

      Why not just post a link to Sec. Handel’s website? If there is something specific to bring up, Great. I’m glad you answered my question about her vote for funding planned parenthood in another thread. However, please don’t post every word that her website has.

  25. fultonrighty says:

    Since when is this forum a place to post huge chunks of a candidate’s website??? Just refer us to the website, Lady T.

  26. zigmaster says:

    “For government to look in the face of a mother of a 13-year-old who has the bad fortune of having been raped and then becomes pregnant and tells that mother what is going to happen in her family, I think that that is between that family, their faith and God,” Handel said at a candidate forum Friday.

    Okay, and if the mother is 16 years old and it was her boyfriend then its between Karen Handel and the Government to decide? No consistency.

      • Lady Thinker says:

        Provocateur,

        Karen has consistency on her plan for Georgia and if you would get off these non-issues, you would see that for yourself.

        • Provocateur says:

          LT,

          What you don’t apparently get is that Karen can propose any plan she wants, but carrying it out is quite another thing.

          In 2006, she said multiple times that if she got elected, she would ensure that there would be voting machines that could provide a verifiable paper trail.

          Once she got elected, she declared “Oh, these machines are fine…I’ll ignore what I promised on the campaign trail.”

          LT, I’m beginning to think that you think women don’t lie.

          • Lady Thinker says:

            Both sexes lie. Examples:

            Men after the first date: I’ll call you.

            Women after sub-average sex: You are the best I have ever had!

    • Lady Thinker says:

      Zig,

      In my previous legal career, I talked to the ten, eleven, twelve. and thirteen year olds who were incest victims and pregnant as well as working two separate cases where two seven-year-old victims were raped and murdered.

      In the live cases, the victims should have the right to an abortion as they face a chance of dying if they carry the fetus to full term. Before you say give the babies up for adoption, know that rape/incest victims are not to be used as incubators for those wanting children regardless of how they are procured.

      I also believe that to force a rape victim to carry the child of her attacker victimizes her a second time and she should be able to abort if she wants to do so.

      And the third exception, the life/health of the mother, the woman has a right to abort if it will let her live to care for any children to whom she has already given birth or, in cases of cancer, she can benefit from chemotherapy if she aborts.

      I have never had to make this decision because after having a child, I had cancer and could not have more. I had cancer two more times and let me tell ya, the last one nearly took me. If I had been pregnant and had to choose between aborting and living or keeping the fetus and both of us die, the choice would have been easy, abort so as to not deprive my son of a mother.

      Say what you want, but until you have been there, you may not do what you profess to believe.

      These are the three exceptions that pro-lifers believe in and these exceptions does not make a person pro-choice.

      • zigmaster says:

        Do you agree with Karen that in 99% circumstances, government should force women to carry a child to term?

        • Lady Thinker says:

          I’m not running for office and abortion is legal so I am not going to agree or disagree with Karen’s views but regardless of what Karen thinks of this issue, I am supporting her and voting for her because I feel she is a far better candidate than Deal and Barnes.

  27. Lady Thinker says:

    John Konop,

    Have you seen Karen’s detail education plan?

    Karen Handel’s private sector and political careers are a testament to the importance of a solid public education. Today, Karen Handel is a leading candidate for Governor because of the strength of her public education, the support and discipline of her teachers, and the love and support of friends.

    Growing up with a turbulent home-life that ultimately forced her to leave home at the age of 17, Karen completed her studies and graduated from high school with her class. Although she was a very good student, she was now supporting herself by working full-time, so a traditional college education was not a possibility. She entered the workforce and began putting herself through night school to pursue a degree in accounting.

    It was her intelligence, her drive and determination that enabled her career to take off and, ultimately, she caught the eyes of Vice President Dan & Marilyn Quayle. Karen served as Deputy Chief of Staff to Marilyn Quayle and later held executive positions with KPMG, CIBA Vision and served as CEO/President of the North Fulton Chamber of Commerce, before entering public life.

    None of her successes – in the private sector or in politics – could have been possible without the foundation that a strong public school education provided.
    Karen’s goal for improving public education is a simple one. She wants today’s children to be prepared to enter the real world and able to take advantage of all of the opportunities that life presents them, just as she did. We must all unite in the common purpose: to ensure that EVERY child has the opportunity to graduate from high school and be prepared for whatever is next.

    The Handel Plan for Strengthening Education focuses on utilizing technology and reforms to modernize instruction, classrooms, curriculum and ultimately Georgia’s students. And like all investment strategies, Georgia’s investment in education will only yield returns if it is targeted, constantly evaluated, transparent and focused on results.

    Paid Creating 21st Century Classrooms
    Georgia has long been at the forefront of technological innovation and it’s time to bring innovation to our classrooms.

    Expand the availability of on-line classes, using a blended model that gives teachers more one-on-one contact with students, especially in the areas of remedial learning for the early grades.
    Encourage school systems to partner with recreational centers, churches, and Boys and Girls’ Clubs, to provide after-school locations for on-line learning.

    Give High School juniors and seniors the ability to start college or technical school education early, through online offerings (similar to career academies but without bricks and mortar, and earlier).
    Work with partners in the private sector to expand the accessibility of broadband in ALL of our classrooms, so that students have full access to high-quality interactive instruction and learning.

    Recruiting and Retaining the best and the brightest asTeachers
    Reinstate Master Teacher program. Teachers who take the time to become the best in their profession should be rewarded for that commitment and investment.

    Recruiting the Best. The need for high quality teachers is particularly urgent in the Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics subjects, which according to the National Academies, are critical to our economic future and Georgia’s ability to compete in the global economy. Karen will work with local school boards to develop strategies and incentives to attract the most talented graduates of the most rigorous academic programs to play the role of outstanding teacher in our children’s lives.

    Reward Teachers for Real Success. Teachers who deliver positive, successful learning outcomes should be rewarded. The one-size-fits-all approach to teacher salaries must be reformed for today’s 21st Century world. A teacher’s path to expanded career opportunities and higher pay should not be tied solely to tenure or post-graduate degrees, nor should the path to higher salaries mean moving into administration. Karen will work closely with teachers and local school systems to develop a Career Ladder for our classroom teachers, so that front-line educators have opportunities to grow professionally while remaining in the classroom. Karen will also work with teachers and local school systems to develop a fair, equitable system of measurements and goals to reward our exceptional teachers and hold under performers accountable.

    Declaring a ‘State of Emergency’ on Georgia’sDrop-out Rate
    With one of the highest drop-out rates in the nation, we’re experiencing our own natural disaster that limits the growth of our children and our state.

    Give our teachers and schools the latest technology for early detection and intervention with ‘at-risk’ students. The latest technology permits much more effective longitudinal tracking of individual students, making it much easier to identify those most at risk of eventually dropping out of school. Research has shown that most future dropouts can be identified years beforehand on the basis of statistical factors, such as low attendance and poor grades in English and math.

    Expanding the partnerships between technical colleges from high schools to middle schools. Studies show that children who are ‘at-risk’ of dropping out begin falling behind and losing interest in middle school. By bringing technical instruction into middle schools, ‘at-risk’ students can pursue learning in areas of interest that may keep them interested, in-school, and, ultimately, better prepared for the workforce.

    Comprehensive Reform Through Local Flexibility and Choice
    Georgia has doubled the amount of per-pupil spending over the past 25 years and has not seen a good return on that investment. The status-quo answer of spending more money is not going to solve the problem.

    Giving local school systems the flexibility to replicate success. Research suggests that encouraging low-performing schools to adopt the best practices (like staffing models and hours of operation) of better performing schools and districts can result in improved student performance. Study of such best practices can also produce significant cost savings. Karen will work with teachers, parents, and administrators to create an online resource of these best practices to give local school districts access to the initiatives to foster and replicate successes from schools all across Georgia.

    Leading the way in Charter Schools. The Handel Administration will make Georgia the nation’s leader in Charter Schools, educational flexibility and accountability, with a goal of doubling the number of charter schools in the next 10 years; giving local jurisdictions more flexibility to replicate charter school successes with accountability; and, expanding the number of virtual charter schools in Georgia.

    Early College High Schools. In less than 10 years, the number of Early College High Schools has grown to more than 200 nationally, including 12 in Georgia. More are needed in a state with one of the highest drop-out rates in the nation. These schools are developed by public-private partnerships, often with support from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and can be located either on community college campuses or within high schools. As Governor, Karen will be a strong champion for these schools and the creation of additional early college high schools throughout Georgia.

    Creating a 21st Century Workforce
    Addressing Workforce Needs Through Public-Private Partnerships. High school students thinking about entering the workforce sooner, rather than later, should have much more support than they have today. The Handel administration will work with local school districts to develop partnerships with community and technical colleges, shared-time technology centers, and employers. This will create opportunities for students to take specialized, occupation-specific courses as early as middle school and begin to earn recognized employer credentials and enrollment in post secondary programs in the very years at which they are most at risk for dropping out.
    Karen Handel’s administration will make the Georgia business community a more active stakeholder by engaging local businesses and leveraging their resources and input.

    Real Reform Fueled by Transparency & Cost Savings
    Encouraging/requiring local school systems to consolidate or outsource administrative and back-office functions to save money that can be realigned to the classroom. Studies have shown potential cost savings of tens of millions of dollars with the consolidation or outsourcing of administration services (payroll, benefits, etc). Districts should also be encouraged to partner together to combine purchasing power.

    Establishing an annual on-line spending report. Transparency is the key to accountability and Georgia’s parents need easy access to see how their tax dollars are being spent.

    Establishing a state education report card. Karen will work with the local school systems to develop a broad, state-wide set of measurements for education in our state to track our progress. While SAT scores are one measure, they certainly are not the only metric, and when more Georgia students take the SAT than in most other states, we are not always seeing a true comparison.

    Reinvigorating the state Board of Education and Board of Regents by appointing leaders in business and education to represent a vision for the 21st Century. Instead of looking at these appointments as rewards for political patronage, Karen will recruit the most qualified leaders from all over Georgia to serve on these governing boards. In addition, Karen will look to appoint advocates of school choice, charter and home schools, so that all of Georgia’s education choices are represented.

    Creating a 21st Century Funding model for education in Georgia
    Modernizing funding for education in Georgia. The state’s current QBE funding model for education is more than 20 years old and is not relevant in today’s world. As Governor, Karen will lead a modernization of state funding for education. She will work with parents, teachers and school systems to develop a funding mechanism that emphasizes money following the child, accountability and transparency, and the use of technology in teaching our children.

    Giving school systems the ability to use MOST funds for classroom instruction. Currently, sales tax revenues are generally used for capital projects, leaving property taxes and state funds as the primary sources for classroom funding in Georgia. Because of lack of flexibility, these tight budget years have led to counties moving forward with replacing football fields, while laying-off teachers.

    As Governor, Karen will give local systems greater flexibility, with voter approval, to manage their budgets and utilize MOST funds to pay for classroom spending. In exchange for the greater flexibility, the local systems will have to accept caps on property tax millage rates for education. Today, 10 Georgia School systems use Sales Tax revenues for classroom instruction and operations and they have some of the lowest property taxes in the state.

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