I’m Pro-Life, And I’m For Karen Handel

In 2000, I primaried a sitting Republican State Senator who was consistently voting with Roy Barnes’ agenda of consolidating power in Atlanta. I was proud to receive the endorsement of Georgia Right To Life. The fact is, all four of us in that primary received the same endorsement. We were all “good Republicans”, which meant first and foremost, we were pro-life.

But as the numbers of “good Republicans” grew from the minority to the majority, Georgia Right to Life made a conscious decision to switch their position on what constituted pro-life. No longer were exceptions for rape or incest to be included in their criteria, they would only begrudgingly accept a single exception for the life of the mother.

The clear effects of this decision are that there are more abortions performed in Georgia than if GRTL had held those “good Republicans” feet to the fire to pass laws that would have limited abortions to those three exceptions.

There is no way to refute this fact.

GRTL was instrumental in electing a majority of legislators that signed their “triple exception” pledge. Then, with the pieces supposedly in place to change life issues in our state and set a precedent for the nation, we chose not to score. We moved the goal posts.

The fact is, the folks at Georgia Right to Life have decided they would rather have an issue than to reduce the number of abortions in Georgia. The officers enjoy being able to hold power of not just certifying who is pro-life, but now actively try to game the system to allow themselves to choose their candidates, regardless if there are others in the same race with equal pro-life bonafides.

When current State Senator Jim Butterworth was running his first election, GRTL refused to give him a questionnaire to ask his pro-life credentials. They already had “their” candidate, and didn’t need anyone else to interfere.

Now, GRTL has decided it wants to make a point in the 2010 Governor’s race, and has decided to endorse every candidate but Karen Handel for Governor.

Including – a teacher who had his teaching certificate suspended for an inappropriate relationship with his student.

Think about that one for a moment.

Georgia Right to Life would rather you vote for a man who had a secret relationship with his student, bought her a cell phone so he could contact her without her parents knowing, bought her a puppy, and, according to the now grown student, had sex with her, than vote for Karen Handel.

Why does GRTL not want you to vote for Karen Handel?

“Ms. Handel proclaims herself pro-life; however, she does not meet the 21st century demands of being pro-life.” says Dan Becker, President of GRTL.

The “21st century demands” now require a woman who was raped or the victim of incest to carry a child to term. But there’s so much more. GRTL takes exception to Handel’s view of invitro fertilization and fertility treatments.

Karen and her husband Steve have been more public than should be required about their inability to conceive children. They have tried for over 10 years to have a family that the folks at GRTL would approve of. But support for invitro fertilization processes that may result in excess embryos beyond what is needed for conception weighed into their decision to determine that Handel isn’t pro-life. They apparently decided to add insult to injury by referring to Mrs. Handel as “Ms.”

When I was a candidate, there was not a more active member of the pro-life movement than Andrianne Susong. She has endorsed Handel.

In 2010, I don’t believe there is a more conservative, pro-life member of the Georgia State Senate than John Douglas. I watched him for over two hours before last year’s Georgia-Georgia Tech game put Handel stickers on passers by. He didn’t do so wearing a big “I’m Senator John Douglas” shirt or nametag. He did it just as a hard working conservative, in plain clothes, doing what he could that afternoon to help elect Karen Handel.

And my colleague and friend Erick Erickson, who formed RedState.com with the sole criteria that contributors must be pro-life, is solidly behind Karen Handel.

I’m sorry that GRTL has fallen to the point that they would rather have a child molester represent their version of family values than someone that supports invitro fertilization. That’s sad, because 6 years ago, they were at a point where they could have pushed for victory.

Instead, they moved the goal posts. Pro-life Republicans now debate who’s more pro-life. And innocent children continue to die while we bicker.

This was not the way I intended to announce my support for Handel, nor is it the issue on which I used to base my support for her. I’ll have more to say about that soon. But on this day where GRTL has decided to play their political games, I want to be perfectly clear:

I’m pro-life, and I’m for Karen Handel.


    • GAPoliticsisfun says:

      Chapman, Deal, Johnson, Oxendine, McBerry all tout being endorsed by an organization that believes that in the case of couple who cannot conceive – the women is emotional, desperate, and barren. That couple should be banned from in-vitro fertilization.

      They also believe that when a 13 year old mentally handicapped girl gets raped, should be forced to have the child. They also believe that when a 13 year old girl’s uncle slips into the room late at night, and impregnates that helpless girl she should be forced to have the child.

      • I Am Jacks Post says:

        you’re an idiot. that’s not their position. GRTL does not support banning in-vitro. That’s a Handel campaign red herring.

        • B Balz says:

          If GRTL was more about encouraging open adoption, preventing teenage/unplanned pregnancy, breaking the cycle of sexual abuse, etc., than being against abortion, this would not be an issue.

          But, I digress.

        • John Konop says:

          I Am Jacks Post,

          Help us understand why the GRTL is not calling this murder since eggs do die and under the GRTL strict definition that is murder ie stem cell research you guys call murder.

          • Fred Smulavich says:

            Egg death and embryo death are different. Don’t embarrass yourself by being disingenuous. Yes, I agree that GRTL should take a more comprehensive approach, however that’s not the current point of discussion. We’re solely talking about the judging criteria for pro-life status, and the strawmen are a bit distracting

                • Fred Smulavich says:

                  Please explain how that’s not logically congruous. An unfertilized egg and an embryo are different, and fertilizing an egg for the sake of implantation and creating an embryo for the sake of destruction / stem cell research are different.

                    • Fred Smulavich says:

                      And in the body many fertilized eggs also don’t survive the process. GRTL (from my understanding) supports minimizing the number of fertilized eggs, as is common in many other countries.

                      If I’m wrong, please correct me. But man, can someone please give you a show on the radio? I’d love to hear you yell “Nice spin job!” during my morning coffee.

                    • John Konop says:

                      YOU AND THE GRTL ARE AGAINST:

                      Use of “parthenogenesis” (doubling the genetic complement of an egg without fertilization by sperm) to create new embryonic beings that can be grown in the laboratory and then dissected to provide “embryonic stem cell lines.”


                      AND YOU GUYS ARE FOR:

                      Killing fertilized eggs to create a baby.

                      DO YOU GET THE PROBLEM?

                      YOU GUYS ARE PRO BS!

                    • Lady Thinker says:


                      One could take this a step further and say that if a woman does not become pregnant and goes through a monthly menstrual cycle, she is killing a potential baby. The comments on here regarding the stance GRTL is taking on IVI are just as ridiculous as thinking a monthly menstrual cycle is murder because a woman refuses to get pregnant.

          • jenny says:

            GRTL’s Ethical Treatment of Embryos bill last year was a joke. It declared that embryos while in the petree dish have personhood, when they are put in the uterus they do not, and if delivered with the intent of live birth have personhood again.

            First of all, the term personhood does not exist in any American law dictionary that I’ve found. It is legally non-existent. Second of all, the idea of bequeathing and removing personhood three times for one embryo seems a bit bizarre. Last, Dan Becker told me last legislative session (2209) that in vitro was using science to fulfill the Dominion Mandate.

    • SFrazier says:

      Just like we would have never have guessed that half of Karen’s straw poll voters are Log Cabin Republicans following her around from event to even?. Get REAL Icarus. It is no secret that Handel lies about everything. Kudos to GRTL for having the courage to say what “Handel is saying now does not match up with your past actions.” I will now send GRTL some money as well as offer my time as a volunteer…

      • SFCWallace says:

        I call BS! Your cheap ass wouldn’t send a dime to Mother Theresa and you are on here all day and have no time to volunteer…

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        I’m gonna wager Harry is being sarcastic. Hey man, it’s campaign season. I’ll give a free car to ever man and woman and a pony to every child. Vote for me!

  1. Lady Thinker says:


    Great post with many valid points and facts.

    As you said, GRTL supports an accused pedolphile, three candidates with ethics violations/issues, and one candidate who is too busy doing other things instead of finding time to run for governor.

    Karen is my choice and I am glad she is yours too.

  2. Fred Smulavich says:

    Color me unsurprised. This shilling for Handel, I will never understand it. Why? A mediocre SoS (who can’t complete a term?) Someone who certainly comes of as more moderate, a tireless repeater of obnoxious rhetoric (tenacious, 21st century, the next governor… on HER plate, mission critical)… I mean I’m sorry, but if we’re all this desperate for someone in the governor’s race, let’s all just band together and pick someone to write in. Because MRS. Handel will be perhaps even worse that Sonny if my suspicions are correct.

    And seriously, we all know McBerry is a creep. It’s really overplayed at this point. Yes, the term “child molester” is one of the more powerful emotional tools. Good work with your blogging prowess. GRTL isn’t here to endorse or not endorse candidates based upon things like this McBerry scandal (which, I don’t support the guy, but we should resolve it one way or the other instead obnoxiously playing off of it… Of course I’d hate for SWGA Politics and Peach Pundit to lose something to pontificate about). They have criteria for endorsement, and Handel doesn’t meet that criteria.

    She’s not endorsed by GRTL, get over it. I’m glad you now can proudly shill Icky. Oh, and by the way, the barrenness – in vitro thing is a crock and we all know it. Restricting the number of embryos is not the same as barring the process.

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        GRTL isn’t here to be the holistic judge of candidates on all conservative and moral sides. They solely make endorsements based upon abortion criteria.

        And honestly John, after watching you wait around on here and spout your own inconsistencies, I have a hard time taking you seriously.

    • ZazaPachulia says:

      “Yes, the term “child molester” is one of the more powerful emotional tools. Good work with your blogging prowess.”


      I also thought the “And innocent children continue to die while we bicker” flourish was truly a rose among thorns… It reminded me of my drill instructor at boot camp.

    • B Balz says:

      Restricting the number of embryos is code for stopping ALL embryonic stem cell research efforts is Georgia. Who was behind SB169?

      Don’t be naive, it takes the fire away from being disingenuous.

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        Yes, stopping all embryonic stem cell research. Not barring in vitro fertilization, which Karen uses as her attempted distraction for her “pro-woman” stance. Ahhh I have fond memories about her slick “I’m Christian! I’m pro-life!” flyer from the Christian Alliance forum…

        • kyleinatl says:

          Stopping embryonic stem cell research, thusly why GRTL is out of touch with most mainstream Americans.

  3. Mayonnaise says:

    It’s a said day when the Handel supporters have to use the “well at least she’s not a child molester” card to justify her pro-choice stance. Panic must be setting in.

    • Lady Thinker says:

      She doesn’t have any ethical issues or baggage to work through like Deal, Johnson, and Oxendine. And no, she isn’t in a panic. She just has a better plan for Georgia than your candidate or the others.

            • Lady Thinker says:

              What proof do you have that she is Sonny’s hand-picked successor? Or are you making that up?

                • Cool Hand Luke says:

                  It IS common knowledge. Just like it is common knowledge that Handel is the monst liberal of all the Republican candidates.

                  • B Balz says:

                    Well then, it is common knowledge that the remarks aired by GRTL on WSBTV tonight are wholly inappropriate to say to a lady. That was simply wrong.

                    When I heard “no comment’ I thought the man a coward, but worse, a man using a cause to make a buck.

                    GRTL may have the vote of many, to me, they reeked today. Anyone around here knows I am not Ms. Handel’s biggest fan, but heck, right is right.

                    • Jim Bob says:

                      Kind of like it is inappropriate for a “lady” (Handel) to have a sailor’s mouth.

                    • Lady Thinker says:

                      You know BB, I GOT SO UPSET WITH KAREN HANDEL today that I could scream. I can’t believe she did not wear her burka/burkha/burqua to the Taliban Headquarters to meet with the head mullah of the GRTL.

                    • B Balz says:

                      @Ick & LT Huh?

                      I mention that GRTL seemed way out of line and your Muslim reference is lost on me???

                    • Lady Thinker says:


                      It relates to the way that I perceived Becker’s attack not only against Karen but against women in general, that we are not competent to think for ourselves and need him to tell us how to think and what to do.

                      The Taliban does the thinking for women, ergo, Becker’s attitude and bullying ego wants to tell women what they can and cannot do.

                  • Jim Bob says:

                    Lady Thinker and Icarus (and Erick, for that matter),

                    I really look foward to what y’all will have to say when Handel doesn’t make the run-off.

                    • Cool Hand Luke says:

                      They’ll blame the uneducated electorate and the misinformation campaign directed toward their candidate. And then they will threaten to move to Maryland….. 🙂

      • SFrazier says:

        What??? Are you Kidding…..
        Karen Handel baggage “pay to play”
        “On September 27, 2005, Handel received a contribution from Hamid Alaee. Four months later, Mr. Alaee’s company, Unique Design and Construction, received approval for a zoning modification from Handel and the Commission. Many other beneficiaries of Handel’s actions on the Fulton County Commission gave campaign contributions of up to $10,000, including Roberts Properties, Archer Western Contractors, Brown and Caldwell, Gresham Smith and Partners, John Controls, and others. In 2006, Handel received $10,000 from Fourth Quarter Properties, the real estate company involved in a notoriously shady land deal with Karen Handel’s old boss, Sonny Perdue.”

          • SFrazier says:

            And her lies on her resume..
            “She also put herself through as much college as she could afford before starting a career that would see her rise rapidly through corporate America (including CIBA Vision and accounting firm KPMG) and Republican politics.
            From a job at Hallmark Cards corporate offices in Washington, D.C., Karen was recruited to work in the Bush-Quayle White House, eventually becoming Deputy Chief of Staff. In that capacity, she managed office operations and spearheaded Mrs. Quayle’s breast cancer awareness and research campaign, which ultimately led to the founding of the Susan G. Komen Washington ‘Race for the Cure.’
            After the White House, Karen served as an executive with KPMG and later with CIBA Vision. ”
            We need a Joe Wilson moment (“She lied”). She wasn’t an executive at KPMG, she was the marketing director for the ATL office. This was a do-nothing position that reported to the local managing partner. Without a college degree she wasn’t qualified to be a staff consultant, yet she claims she was an executive.
            She goes on to imply she was the Deputy Chief of Staff for the Bush/Quayle administration. She was the Deputy Chief of Staff for Mrs. Quayle.
            If she applied to any corporation and they caught her embellishing her resume like she does on her web site, she would never get a job offer. This says a lot about her lack of ethics. On the other hand, given her weak resume I guess we should give her a pass for lying.”

            • John Konop says:


              KPMG is a highly nationally respected accounting firm. A directors position at that company is no joke position and I am sure much higher than anything on your resume or the other candidates in this race in the private sector. And in my company it is an executive position.

              Also ripping her executive position fighting cancer ‘Race for the Cure.’ only will alienate voters concerned about cancer.

          • Jim Bob says:


            I’m beginning to think you are not a real poster at all. But, just a political hack from the Handel campaign. Some of your posts are just down right rude and hateful (much like the Handel campaign folks). And you certainly ignore everyone else’s thoughts and opinions when they are directed toward your candidate.

            • Lady Thinker says:

              First, as I have said numerous times, I am not a paid Karen Handel staffer, just a grassroots supporter who gives out bumper stickers and campaign signs I pick up from her debates to my friends, loved ones, college professors, colleagues, neighbors, relatives, police officers, and business owners.

              Second, most of the posters I attack are Deal and Johnson campers who attack Karen on petty non-issues and lies and do not attempt to show why they think their candidate has a better program for Georgia than Karen has.

              Third, my posts against them are no more rude and hateful than the posts they direct toward me personally in addition to the ones they direct toward Karen. But I notice that you didn’t mention their negative attacks on me or even your attacks.

              Clear now?

              • analogkid says:

                LT is a fervent Handel supporter (bless her heart :-)), but in my experience does not attack without provocation.

              • Jim Bob says:

                “…most of the posters I attack are Deal and Johnson campers who attack Karen on petty non-issues and lies…”

                You mean “petty non-issues” like being uneducated, supporting domestic partner issues, ethics issues of her own, not being supported by the pro-life community, never seeing anything through, flip-flopping on issues, and just not conservative. Those issues?????

                • Lady Thinker says:

                  Yes, because Karen’s stance on those issues have been blown way out of proportion and do not resemble anything close to the truth. There are those preferring to post the rumors and lies in hopes of keeping her from being elected.

                  Georgia still has a large number of men and women who want to keep that glass ceiling in place for women.

                  Georgia is in the Bible belt and there are still those believing that women should not hold positions of authority over men.

                  Does that answer your question?

                  • B Balz says:

                    LT you are quite the pugilist. Like Bowesville, I’m outta here- But I sure did enjoy the show.

                    • Lady Thinker says:

                      Yea, I guess I am but I have always fought for those who could not fight for themselves and those who needed more support to defend themselves. Can’t help it.

  4. dj says:

    Please define “Pro Life” and, in addition, your thoughts regarding how the HLA, should it be incorporated, potentially affect certain “legal” birth control measures currently available…not to mention if you support the HLA…

    • Locke and Load says:

      He defined his view of pro-life above. It’s clear from reading the post that it’s being against abortions with a triple exception (rape, incest, mother’s life) while ALSO trying to limit the number of abortions that occur. GRTL has lost sight of that over the years.

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        I’ve realized that this whole pro-life dispute is one of faulty definitions. We oppose abortions because we’re protecting innocent human life, and yet that same human life is no longer innocent or worth protecting if it is conceived in a horrible way?

        The whole point is that it’s protection of human life, no matter how unsavory it might be. If you were conceived through rape, would you devalue your own life?

        • Lady Thinker says:

          Why should the child/girl/teen/adult female be victimized twice? If a ten-year-old is raped and becomes pregnant, she has a chance of dying before the fetus is born. Should both of them die when aborting the fetus saves the child?

          Many of you seem unaware that it isn’t adult women getting raped, it is also children! Again do you prefer the child and the fetus both die? I say let the child live by giving her the “morning after” pill at the hospital while she is having the rape exam to collect forensic evidence of the crime for prosecution against the offender.

          • ZazaPachulia says:

            Explain to me again how debating this decades old moral conundrum is going to fix the economy, create jobs, solve our impending water crisis, fix education and develop real transportation solutions for Georgians?

            If Karen had the track record to do all of that, she would get my vote hands down. Unfortunately, she does not. Neither does Ox, ‘School voucher’ Johnson nor Deal.Real.

            Join me in the great Otis Putnam experiment at our party’s primary and lets go ahead and concede this thing to King Roy.

            • Fred Smulavich says:

              Zaza, I like almost everything you say on this blog. But I have to say, I’d rather give a non campaigner like Chapman a chance than a random “Regular Guy” who has no grasp on the issues.

              Chapman may not be campaigning, but he was a good Senator and a good Commissioner, and I’d wager he’d be a good governor. Not to mention we ALL know Roy is going to run a nasty, nasty campaign, and I think he’s the only one (except for Scott, but so it goes…) that can withstand that one and come out clean.

              • Chapman is out on the campaign trail. So he is campaigning. He just is not polling well and has limited funds.

                He’ll be at the Dodge County GOP meeting next week in fact. So he’s doing something.

                • Fred Smulavich says:

                  Right, I’ve seen him at events, and by “campaigning” I mean “blustering and pandering until they foam at the mouth.”

                  I think he’s trying to get out there, I just hope the utter vacuum of the primary will allow his low key campaign style to somehow get traction.

              • ZazaPachulia says:

                I like Chapman, too.

                Unfortunately, he’s suffering from the same ailment that proved terminal to Scott’s campaign — he can’t get the support from his peers in the General Assembly or the GOP power structure.

                • Fred Smulavich says:

                  So, the power structure is the problem. We all know this. Can we not, as outsiders of the “kingmakers”, do something within the voting population? Are we so powerless against the establishment that we have to resign ourselves to choosing from the annointed / appointed jokers?

              • Fred Smulavich says:

                Your comments are increasingly base, especially considering they come from an educator

                  • Fred Smulavich says:

                    certainly true, I just want something more satisfying coming back from you than campaign talking points.

                    I would take it as a compliment- I expect intelligent discourse from you, and find myself disappointed when it regresses. Better than the opposite, right?

                    • Lady Thinker says:

                      Like what? Joining the bandwagon to trash Karen on non-issues that have nothing to do with having the best plan for Georgia?

                      I’ve said before, I don’t care if Karen cusses like a sailor, (although that is really is a rumor because nobody on here has confirmed he/she has personally heard Karen have a potty mouth instead of I heard from a friend who knows someone who said a cousin’s girlfriend’s brother’s niece said so), owns or worked in a liquor store, (anyone on here not drink?), has talked to gays and asked for their views (they pay taxes, they have a right to representation from political leaders), supports the rape/incest/life of the mother view of abortion, supports invitro fertilization and fertility treatments, or doesn’t have a college education.

                      I do care if she is capable working with other governors to work out the Lake Lanier water problems, deal with Immigration, keep police officers and teachers from being furloughed, can get Georgia out of the bottom ten educationally, can get us underemployed workers full-time jobs (anybody looking for someone to fill a corporate security or corporate training position?), stimulate the economy, and other critical issues that have to be dealt with to move Georgia forward.

                      What does your candidate believe in?

                    • Lady Thinker says:

                      OOPS! I forgot about Ethics. Karen has the ethical backbone, the courage, and the brass balls to get the job done as governor because sometimes the best man for the job is a woman. Karen has the best experience and qualifications to get the job done.

                      What does your candidate bring to the table?

                    • Mozart says:

                      “because sometimes the best man for the job is a woman”

                      Thank you for finally divulging the TRUE criteria for why you are voting for Karen Handel. It is not her ethics, her skill, her experience…just that she is a woman, LT.

                      That also explains why Icarus supports of her too. He thinks gender plays a role in how competent someone is.

                      What a pair of chauvinists…one male one and one female one. Kudos to these Republicans for finally displaying themselves to be as emotional in how they choose a candidate as the Dems have been for years.

                    • Lady Thinker says:


                      I have not chosen Karen because she is a woman nor have some of the men supporting her. I can’t speak for the others but I have chosen Karen for her values, her ethics, her moral compass, something most of the others do not have, and because out of listening to all the others and what their plan is for Georgia, she has the best one in my opinion.

                      You took my one line, “Sometimes the best man for a job is a woman,” and make it a sexist comment. The more I see Karen attacked with non-issues from the others, the more I am convinced that she is the best person for the governor’s office.

                      What does your candidate plan to do for Georgia? I don’t recall you ever stating why the person you have chosen is the best one for Georgia.

      • John Konop says:

        GRTL and Sadie Fields have lost credibility from many for the years of blindly supporting candidates with obvious ethical issues while playing GOD going after other candidates.

        The irony that JESUS said:

        “People who live in glass houses should not throw stones”

        • SFCWallace says:

          Since “Sheet glass” wasn’t invented until 1902 (which would be required to build a house), I doub’t Jesus said that…I do recall something about “He who is without sin…” and throwing stones.

          • John Konop says:


            In the Gospel of Matthew 7:3, Jesus is quoted as saying, during the discourse on judgmentalism in the Sermon on the Mount, “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        Whoa. Niiiiice handle you’ve got there. Locke and Load. I’m sad I didn’t think about it. Dibs on Demosthenes.

  5. dj says:

    Lady Thinker,

    Pro-Life / HLA is just a vote getter…if any supporter and/or candidate should support it, you can bet your (and mine’s) bottom dollar that they would want that option available should it happen to their daughter, wife, sister, etc…not to mention the potential “legality” of the birth control pil and IUD…need I say more? But make no doubt, I will…

    • Lady Thinker says:

      Good comments and I feel you are correct, that people will have one opinion until it happens to their family. Then attitudes and beliefs change.

  6. John Konop says:

    Barnes has to be laughing at the GOP this election will be about jobs an education. Gut level politics does not work with high unemployment and massive teacher lay-offs.

    And finally I am always cautious with people from the right and left who blindly know what is best for all!

    • ZazaPachulia says:

      Yes sir. Barnes is laughing. Voters want jobs and education and our proud Republican knuckleheads are talking about bringing the Arizona immigration law to Georgia and arguing over who is more committed to protecting the fetus.

      This is why I really miss Austin Scott. He’s truly concerned about what is best for Georgia. One early campaign memory that stands out to me is when all of the others were lathering up a pandering NRA lovefest about campus carry, Austin was the only Republican candidate with the common sense and gumption to admit that the General Assembly’s plan to allow hand guns in college classrooms wasn’t such a good idea.

      That’s the type of attitude we’re now sorely lacking in this race. We need someone who isn’t so consumed with blind ambition that he or she will actually take a moment to do some truth telling and flash some critical thinking skills.

      The fact that Karen and her supporters are dumb enough to get baited into these childish and unproductive “I AM pro-life enough” and “I AM pro-family enough (as in I really don’t like gay rights as much as you say I do)” arguments prove to me that she’s not ready to be our governor. Of course there are other major flaws with her candidacy, but this stuff is the icing on the proverbial cake.

  7. hannah says:

    Deciding when other people are to live or die is a power play and power is addictive. Moreover, to be felt, power has to hurt. Which is why the power-addicted, typically, are into deprivation.
    That said, reproduction is an inherently dangerous process and potentially life-threatening to every woman in whom it occurs. Mother nature, aware of the danger, causes the majority of fertilized ova to abort before implantation, and more somewhat later.
    Abortion is a natural process. A surgical or medical intervention to terminate a pregnancy prematurely (after implantation and before a fetus is viable without mechanical assistance) is something else. When the process of fetal maturation is able to be completed with a period of incubation, it’s customary to call it a caesarean section in recognition of the historical fact that surgical intervention has long been considered necessary to preserve life. That it has recently become a preferred procedure is still another matter, which one is tempted to classify as yet another variant of the “live or die” power play — the determination that human life is too important to let mother nature decide when and where a fetus is to be ejected from the womb into the wide, wide world.
    Some people argue that the medical/surgical treatment of reproductive women should not be a subject of political discourse. But, if politics is defined as the allocation of power, as conservatives insist, and if the legislative, executive and judicial branches of our governments continue to claim jurisdiction over when a human life ends (suicide is illegal and the death penalty is legal), then arguing over whose life should begin, and when, is entirely consistent.
    Conservatives are committed to the concept that “to govern” is “to rule.” They are wedded to the belief that we elect rulers and endow them with power over life and death. They haven’t yet accepted that the people govern; that their consent to representation is not a blank check for deprivation and/or abuse; and that public servants, whether they are appointed or elected for a short period of time, are supposed to serve.
    On the other hand, if we want protectors, we should hire guard dogs and train them to bite only strangers.

    • John Konop says:


      ….Conservatives are committed to the concept that “to govern” is “to rule.”….

      The Truth:

      This is a problem for many on the right and the left, we have no shortage of “social engineers” on both sides.

      No Child Left Behind is a classic example of bipartisan failed “social engineering”! Both side should focus more on self improvement and excepting people fro who they are over pushing an agenda at them.

      • hannah says:

        I use the term “conservative” advisedly, recognizing that authoritarianism is not restricted by political affiliation or gender.
        That some people accept the designation for themselves is not invalidating.

  8. I Am Jacks Post says:

    “This was not the way I intended to announce my support for Handel”

    Funniest. Line. Ever.

  9. I Am Jacks Post says:

    “I didn’t fill out the Georgia Equality survey”

    “I didn’t say an embryo isn’t human life”

    You’ve really got to suspend disbelief to buy the excuses coming out of this campaign.

  10. In The Arena says:

    “And my colleague and friend Erick Erickson, who formed RedState.com with the sole criteria that contributors must be pro-life, is solidly behind Karen Handel.”

    Erick, which one of your chosen candidates is having a worse week, Nikki Haley or Karen Handel? Nikki has had two different influential conservative types confess to extramarital affairs with her. Given that it is South Carolina, the damage done to Nikki’s campaign pales in comparison to the damage done to Karen’s campaign by not being pro-life in Georgia and having a leading pro-life organization in Georgia call you out on it. Not to mention the cat fight Handel then started with Georgia Right to Life.

    Time to move heaven and earth Erick, your ships are sinking.

  11. EthicsEther says:

    GRTL, did support Sen. Nancy Schaefer, when Butterworth ran against her (?), but, why, then, did the GRTL leader have a suprising lack of affect in discussion of Nancy’s horrific death?

    Could it be because the cold grasp of power mongering sees people as objects? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  12. B Balz says:

    One thing I admire about Icarus, other than his ability to hold a rational, passionate political conversation about matters that typically cause most folks to walk away cussing, is his pragmatism. Maybe it’s the scotch.

    I met Icarus a few years back, and we are genuinely concerned that the GOP could lose this gubernatorial election because the current poll leader may get decimated by ethics issues in November against Mr. Barnes.

    Icarus ran the gubernatorial political calculus and surmised that Ms. Handel stood the greatest chance of prevailing in an election where ethics would probably be THE key issue against the GOP. That was before the economy imploded, and now JOBS seem to be more important to most voters.

    This forum has witnessed tacit, implied, and overt support for Ms. Handel over the last few months. I find nothing wrong with that. This is a privately run blog and the owners can do what they feel is right and just; readership is voluntary.

    Without GRTL’s support in GA, any candidate is going to fight an uphill political march. I don’t agree with it, I don’t really like it, but there it is. I am really glad Icarus called out GRTL in this bit, they have become an agenda, rather than supporting a logical and right-minded agenda.

    That GRTL folk believe that Ms. Handel is not on their team, based on a statements made years ago while representing that miasma that is Fulton County, is a logical long shot.

    I have other issues with Ms. Handel, but to me, not being ‘rubber-stamped’ by GRTL is a plus.

    • ZazaPachulia says:

      “Icarus ran the gubernatorial political calculus and surmised that Ms. Handel stood the greatest chance of prevailing in an election where ethics would probably be THE key issue against the GOP. That was before the economy imploded, and now JOBS seem to be more important to most voters.”

      Actually, Austin Scott had the best shot under both criteria, but the ‘barometers of the conservative movement’ and the power-brokers refused to line up behind him. Now he’s running for Congress.

      • B Balz says:

        WE agree, I did not mention Rep. Scott frankly because he was not tapped by the ‘kingmakers’. Had he been, we might have real change. The status quo hates change.

          • Fred Smulavich says:

            Thank you sir. Now if only we can somehow get around his reluctance to play the campaign game…

            • dj says:

              Fred Smulavich,

              I know I am tired of the “game”…as we all see where the “game” gets us as a nation, state, etc…it’s a smart candidate that will address the real issues irregardless of scoring points with the “game” score keepers…because the “game” is changing…rapidly…we have all been irresponsible, but let’s take corrective measures know before it is too late…Icarus, seriously, if the Tom Graves “investment” matter was really to help those less fortunate, why not incorporate as a non-profit? I know…because it was a “for profit” investment…how stupid are we to be to believe otherwise? It makes absolutely no sense, and less sense for you to defend his actions…we are not that ignorant, even if our collective actions in the past have proven otherwise…

              • dj says:

                sorry…now…because Doug Grammer is watching my grammar…(always keep your sense of humor)…

    • John Konop says:

      Deal and Ox are riddled with ethical problems and Johnson is hung on ethical issues and vouchers. Like it or not Karen Handel is the only chance the GOP has in the general.

      As far as GRTL issue I am no part of the Handel campaign. I only speak for myself, and I have consistently made the same points about GRTL for years. And if it was any other candidate under the same situation no matter what party, I would have made the same comments.

      • TPNoGa says:

        I see your point. Not sure if that is enough reason for me to support her. I am firmly supporting “Undecided”.

        • Charlie LaFountaine says:

          I don’t believe they qualified. Are you going to start a write-in campaign?

          • ZazaPachulia says:

            What about Otis?

            The best way to tell the Republican leadership that their candidates stink is to vote for Otis “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington” Putnam in the primary.

            I know I will.

        • MSBassSinger says:

          How about Ray Boyd? Assuming he gets enough signatures on his petition.

          Honestly, I am undecided. I have no problem with simply not voting for a particular office (while voting for other offices/issues) if there is no one I can stand behind.

          Let me be upfront that I believe an elective abortion, aside from a real and present danger to the mother’s physical life, is taking a human life. In the rare cases of pregnancy by rape and incest, I don’t understand why the unborn baby should pay for the crime with its life.

          I also believe elective abortion is an issue best addressed by changing hearts and minds. People who really believe in pro-life have been strongly pro-adoption, and give generously to groups that help unwed mothers. When a majority of hearts have been changed, elective abortions will be decreased. The overwhelming scientific and medical evidence points to the unborn child being a separate and distinct human being, and thus deserving protection.

          I would not vote for someone who actively supports elective abortions, or actively opposes citizens (incl. the groups they form for advocacy) who advocate for change to protect the unborn. If a candidate is not courageous enough to stand against elective abortions, but at least isn’t advocating them, and is strong on small, limited government, reducing spending, reducing taxes, strong on individual freedom and responsibility, strong on the 1st freedom (exercising religion and religious speech) and gun rights, etc., I would vote for them.

          • ByteMe says:

            In the rare cases of pregnancy by rape and incest, I don’t understand why the unborn baby should pay for the crime with its life.

            Do you understand why the mother may also not want to pay for the crime with her life?

            • MSBassSinger says:

              I understand why she doesn’t want to carry the child to term. However, she doesn’t pay for it with her life. She certainly suffers, but she gets to live. The unborn baby does not. Even if she aborts the baby, the emotional scarring doesn’t go away. In fact, when she realizes she took an innocent life for her benefit, it can increase and prolong her psychological distress.

              Besides, the percentage of abortions due to rape and incest is very small. I am far more interested in making sure women considering elective abortion, for any reason, have all the facts, and for those who oppose elective abortions (including GRTL) to spend their time and resources reaching women one-on-one and offering them support and, if they so desire, adoption for the baby they carry to term. I see a lot of that in the Christian church, but it doesn’t get the headlines (or the PP piousness) like lobbying government for laws does.

              • Lady Thinker says:

                What are the rare/small percentages you keep mentioning for rape/incest? Do you have a site I can access?

                  • ByteMe says:

                    Got anything just a wee bit more recent than 1989?

                    And you think that maybe the one web site is more slanted and anecdotal than reality?

                    • MSBassSinger says:

                      It’s a math thing. We are talking about percentages of an occurrence – it is not likely the percentage changed just because the % of women who have been victims of rape or incest goes up and down.

                      So, prove me wrong. Show me more recent stats on abortions due to rape and incest.

                      I suspect LadyThinker is smart enough to Google or Bing the topic herself. Just as I am sure you are. She asked for a reference, and I gave her one. So, please provide more recent and contradictory stats if you know the one I cited is no longer accurate.

                    • ByteMe says:

                      I’ll go with stats.

                      # of abortions in the mid-80’s: about 1.3 million
                      # of rapes in mid-80’s: about 92,000.

                      # of abortions in 2007: about 850,000.
                      # of rapes in 2007: about 90,000.

                      Rapes remained relatively flat, abortions decreased by 40%. Which means that the probability that the rate of rape-based abortions is the same as the mid-80’s is not a probability that I’d bet money on.


                    • MSBassSinger says:

                      Thank you for the links. The first one does establish that forcible rape has decreased slightly. However, your second link states:
                      “In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions”

                      Your statement “…the probability that the rate of rape-based abortions is the same as the mid-80’s is not a probability that I’d bet money on” seems to indicate your didn’t read your link. 🙂

                      1989 and 2000 – same 1%. Thank you for supporting my case. 🙂

                    • ByteMe says:

                      If you follow the footnote, the number is incorrectly calculated (they used 1.31 million for the divisor, which doesn’t match the 850k in the table). It’s more like… surprise!… 40% larger.

                      However, the basis for the numerator of 13,000 appears to be a guess (which makes sense since a large portion of rapes go unreported).

      • AnyoneElse2010 says:

        Except for the fact that Barnes is going to run circles around her in a debate forum. I may not like Deal’s past dealings, but unfortunately he is the only first tier candidate that can compete with Barnes. My two choices in the primary have come down between Deal and Chapman with a slight edge to Chapman.

  13. Not having the GRTL endorsement, in my opinion, is not a big deal.

    I know Karen and Steve, they are quality people. I KNOW the type of quality work Karen does and her ability to make effective changes. I’m convinced of her conservative principles. They’re good people and get my vote.

  14. Three Jack says:

    this is great news! dan becker is a kook, why would anyone seek his endorsement? to not be endorsed by this wackjob is actually the endorsement any candidate should seek.

    what will beckerhead do in the general when faced with choosing between karen and roy?

  15. ACConservative says:

    I can’t stress enough the extent of the idiocy in this governor’s race. Is GRTL aware that the State of Georgia, more specifically, the Governor can’t ban abortion?

    You see, Roe v. Wade protects a woman’s right to choose on the federal level. That mean’s Georgia can implement all the rules it wants surrounding parental notification, parental consent, ultrasounds, waiting periods, etc. But, the government of this state can not take away a woman’s access to abortion.

    I applaud Karen for not being a shill for a arcane and backwards institution like GRTL.

    But, Karen’s position on this issue is still incredibly shallow at best and demonstrates her understanding of the topic is less than ideal.

    I was checking out Carol Porter the other day (Lord knows I’m not voting for Casey “Pants on the Ground” Cagle), and her position on the abortion issue surprised me.

    Instead of choosing an arbitrary banner like pro-life or pro-choice, she’s actually going to work on fixing the economy, improving education, and empowering women… situations that help contribute to abortions in the first place.

    Instead of pontificating about the problem, we should actually try preventing the sources. No woman in this state should get an abortion. More importantly, no woman in this state should have/need to get an abortion.

    If we actually try to address the issues instead of trying to make money off of them (cough, GRTL, cough), we’ll be a whole lot better off as a state and as a society.

    • ACConservative says:

      Building on that (briefly):

      I think the economy and education situations are so bad, that abortion is going to be a back seat issue in this campaign. Show me the candidate that can improve our schools and bring back jobs and I’ll show you who’ll win in November.

      I’m all for more responsible spending on the state and national level. I think its smart to empower small business owners rather than hold them back. But abortion remains the biggest hypocrisy of the GOP mantra “limit government involvement in our lives.” Quit trying to legislate morality and worry about fixing this mess you’ve made.

      • B Balz says:

        The powerful, organized, active, well funded GRTL, CC, and others are subsets within the GOP that drive much of the ‘fiery’ agenda. Political reality and rationality are not the same, otherwise the railroad tracks would meet in the distance.

        The GOP would do well to minimize the issue of abortion (from now on) and maximize their positions on the economy (biotechnology, and not making ESC illegal) and education.

    • MSBassSinger says:

      Actually, several states have put limits on abortions, and they are Constitutional.

      While I am leery of government using their hamfisted laws to stop abortion, laws that require parental consent for the medical procedure of abortion on their child, require a woman getting an abortion to be fully informed about the status of her unborn baby, etc. make sense.

      The pro-abortion industry, led by Planned Parenthood, has done a good job over the years of convincing women that their unborn baby is just a blob, just an inconvenient part of her body, etc. I believe when a woman is fully informed, and is made aware of the support available to her to complete the pregnancy and provide adoption for her unwanted baby, and is made aware of the physical and psychological dangers of an abortion, it is likely she won’t choose abortion.

      If we must have abortion laws, let’s have laws that require abortion providers to fully inform the woman, and do not usurp parental rights.

      • Doug Grammer says:

        MS I agree with your approach of finding things that most of us should agree on such as not letting minors have a surgical procedure without parental consent.

        What I find interesting is that Dan Becker ran against Nathan Deal for congress in 1992.

      • bowersville says:

        Thanks MSBassinger. I have taken the time to read every one of your posts multiple times. I have to admit, I have struggled with supporting abortions for incest and rape. I am grateful me and mine have never been in that situation to make that decision. But for those who have, the decision is too great for me.

        On one hand and I don’t presume to know the mind of God, I can’t imagine it being remotely possible that a merciful God would intend that any of his children become pregnant as a result of rape or incest. Yet we as a society tend to judge and treat these victim women and children in the most unkind ways.

        But the other hand makes me ill towards Dan Becker. Why so openly endorse the likes of Mc Ilkberry and publicly attempt to disparage and disgrace Handel. Does that help the pro-life movement? I think not. I issue a very strong opinion that Becker’s public rant against Handel was motivated by one thing and one thing only. Attention for Becker.

        Will the pro-life movement end if Handel is elected. No, that woman can probably do more to slow abortions than Becker has ever done. As Icarus stated, the goal posts keep moving. I don’t believe God has changed his mind on murder and abortion.

        I started to leave this for another day. I know of no one stronger than Jim Butterworth on his pro-life stance. He doesn’t wobble like I do. Yet Becker refused by email and telephone to mail Jim a GRTL questionnaire so he could fill it out. How do I know? I read the emails and listened to the phone calls.

        So I guess my bottom line is this. I don’t give a crap about Dan Becker’s opinion or what he says because Dan Becker is full of crap.

          • bowersville says:

            “says Dan Becker, the President of GRTL” the author of the GRTL statement that pokes his thumb in Handel’s eye describing her as nothing more than an emotional barren woman.

            Thanks JK, but the only thing I’m running for is the county line and probably the state line after the November elections. (If I don’t get tarred and feathered first or ran out on a rail)

        • Lady Thinker says:

          I am so glad you have never had to deal with this mess on a personal level and I pray that you never do. I was totally against abortions until I talked to victims of these terrible crimes, then I changed my mind because these victims were so young and the perps were dads, step-dads, granddads, brothers, step-brothers, and all the family configurations you can imagine. Very, very few were stranger-to-stranger.

          I think the GRTL’s support of candidates with ethical baggage as well as supporting a child molester will push votes Karen’s way. While I think you are correct, that Dan Becker is on an attention getting ego trip, I feel he had some anger toward Karen for whatever reason and used this as his forum to hurt her on a personal level.

    • Jimbo says:

      I agree with you 100%. All problems have causes. Address the causes, and the problem goes away.
      I am also seriously considering voting for Carol Porter. Although, if elected, the General Assembly Republicans will take away all of her power.

  16. Doug Deal says:

    When the state has a projected deficit of 2 billion next year, if anyone is voting on the abortion issue above anything else, they are a complete idiot.

    The GRTL is out to kill the GOP, as their endorsement of a child molester so clearly shows.

  17. EthicsEther says:

    A huge part of public service is preparation.

    Those who run for public office without proper preparation lack self discipline. She does not have a college, or even a high school education. Anyone can go to college in GA and she chose to arrogantly try to lead without following the preparatory steps.

    If her only good points are her ethics, then consider this:

    Self discipline and arrogance are issues that pertain to moral turpitude.

    • Doug Deal says:

      So to sum up, elect a crook like Deal or Oxendine since Karen has the remote chance that she might end up being one.

      Nice logic there.

    • I’m calling BS on this. One does not need a college degree to make decisions. Logic and common sense are something that I can tell you many college graduates lack. (Having managed and trained plenty of them.) I dropped out of Georgia Tech during the dot com days. Are you going to tell me that I lack preparation for whatever job it is that I do as well?

      By your poor use of grammar in some of your posts here I can only assume one of two things…. either you didn’t go to college or you didn’t pay attention in English class.

      • Doug Grammer says:

        “Logic and common sense are something” or “Logic and common sense are somethings?” “…..I can tell you many college graduates lack” or ….I can tell you that many college graduates lack?”

        Sorry. I couldn’t help myself.

        • Doug – in, comparison, with, EthicsEther’s, tidbit, above, – I’ll, take, my, mistakes, any, day…

          “GRTL, did support Sen. Nancy Schaefer, when Butterworth ran against her (?), but, why, then, did the GRTL leader have a suprising lack of affect in discussion of Nancy’s horrific death? ”

          Though I would have chosen “some things” instead of “somethings” in the first example. Otherwise, you are correct in that I left out the “that” in the second example. Thanks! 🙂

          • Doug Grammer says:


            I borrowed something v. somethings from your post. You put the words together, so I thought I’d leave them that way. I take great liberties with grammatical rules. I prefer to type in the same type of structure of sentences as that I talk in. This is contrasted by the rules of grammatical structure of which that I should talk. One of the last two sentences is less grammatically correct than the other, but it sounds so much easier on the ears.

            Back to the topic: regardless of her education may be, Sec. Handel has a shot at becoming Gov. I don’t think her education will be the deciding factor for most voters. It might for some, but I doubt it will be enough to put her in or keep her out of the run off. Her stance (or her perceived stance) on abortion might make or break her. It may not be single issue voters, but it could be the deciding factor for some that make or break her campaign.

            The fact that Icarus is for Sec. Handel is so shocking it might deserve it’s own thread. Wait…I think we are in it already. Next week, Icarus tells what sandwich he likes best and we can have a thread on that topic. I can’t wait for the thread on his favorite color.

      • Lady Thinker says:


        Some of the college students I see are perfect examples of the NCLB so we spend money on remedial courses to fix NCLB problems.

      • EthicsEther says:

        It is interesting that your form of discussion of the topic at hand is to attack me.

        • I wasn’t attacking you… simply disproving your point that a college education is necessary to be successful. Of course, I was assuming that you have a college education since you hold them in such high regard. I was also being kind in that I was assuming that you are successful. I could be wrong in my assumption there as well. Please feel free to correct me on either of these two points.

          • EthicsEther says:

            I am not the topic. Is this the place for self disclosure? My assertions about myself are not meaningful here. What would be meaningful is a discussion rather than a litany of “gotchas”.

    • Lady Thinker says:

      If you are using the ethics handle, then be ethical and stop spreading she does not have a high school education because she does. She also has some college, she just didn’t graduate college.

      If you spread rumors, you are not ethical and you handle is a lie.

      • EthicsEther says:

        Doesn’t she have a GED? That is not the same thing as a high school education. Attacking the person rather than the post is what is not ethical.

        • Cool Hand Luke says:

          Attacking the poster and refusing to admit rational arguements is Lady Thinker’s MO.

            • bowersville says:

              That’s why most of us are heading to the exits.

              Good bye to all. If something comes up in this thread worth reading will someone point it out in the next open thread?

              I’m clicking the ejection button— mark all comments as read.

        • Lady Thinker says:

          Karen does NOT have a GED, she HAS a high school diploma as she has said so many time. The GED is a rumor. You are spreading the GED rumor, therefore, if you spread that rumor, you are not ethical.

          • Henry Waxman says:

            This is a silly argument that could away with one, simple photograph of a diploma or a copy of a transcript.

            I wish someone on the Handel campaign team would take the five minutes necessary to make this issue go away.

            • Henry Waxman says:

              I’m sure there was AT LEAST ONE person taking photographs or video at Handel’s high school graduation.

            • Lady Thinker says:

              You and many others would claimed it is a forged document or use some other excuse to push the rumor on this issue.

              • Jim Bob says:


                That’s a lame excuse. A reporter from a Georgia newspaper researched this issue. Even went to Handel’s high school in Maryland. The admin offfice would talk with the reporter off record. But then Handel called the school system and demanded that her transcript not be given out. WHY???????????


                There is nothing wrong with having a GED. She should be proud of the accomplishment and example for others. BUT, instead she refuses to but this “rumour” to bed.

                As for the reporter…I know you like links and all. Well, coming to newspaper in your neighborhood soon……..

                • Lady Thinker says:


                  Again with no sites or a way to confirm or deny your comments, makes them insignificant to me. And if she were to ask me, which there is no reason for her to do so, I would advise her against showing you or the Deal and Johnson camps anything.

                  Deal, Johnson, Oxendine, and McPervert all have college degrees. All four have ethical issues and none of them have a better plan than Karen does for fixing Georgia’s problems. If they did, they would show how their candidate’s plan to be more workable. They can’t so they don’t.

                  So since college is so important to you, vote for one of those and let them put Georgia further behind the eight ball while promoting self-interests.

                  I’m starting to think the problem you and your friends have with Karen is that she is a woman and the education issue is a smoke screen to deny her an equal opportunity to govern Georgia.

                  • Jim Bob says:

                    The main problems, among others, I have with Handel is that she is not conservative nor is she trust worthy shown by her wishy-washyness (probably spelled wrong) on the domestic partners issues. She just can’t ever come out and tell the truth when she is cornered.

                    Qualifications matter, gender doesn’t.

    • trainsplz says:

      Whatever, dude. Steve Jobs dropped out, Bill Gates dropped out, Rush Limbaugh, interestingly, was kicked out. Your college litmus test is useless.

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        I have to completely agree with this. The weird absolutism some people have about college education is disturbing. I know many, many college graduates that I wouldn’t trust with my kid’s allowance.

        I can, however, think of three people I know without college educations (and one without a full high school education) who have started and successfully run multi-million dollar businesses, one of which went into the hundreds of millions. They all three are articulate, sharp, and very talented people.

        • analogkid says:

          OK, I’ll bite. There are a few problems with pointing to Jobs, Gates, and (particularly) Limbaugh as evidence that one doesn’t need education to run a government. With Jobs and Gates, there was probably no reason for them to attend college as there were very few, if any, schools that taught the subject they were interested in to any depth at the time they learned their craft. For many computer related fields, it is still true that formal schooling is not entirely necessarily, as technology changes frequently.

          Second, running a business is not the same as running a government. I’m not suggesting that business is easier, mind you, just different. Ask anyone who has done both. The goal of business is to remain in the black, and that is pretty much it. It is not to provide jobs or make people’s lives better with good products and services. Those things are byproducts of the effort to stay in the black. The goal of government is to do what? Among other things, it is to provide roads and essential services, to provide for the safety of its citizens, to ensure that businesses are good corporate citizens, and so forth. While there are some similarities, the two are more different than the same.

          Third, none of those three people, to my knowledge, have ever (or likely will ever) run for and be elected to office. If you want to make this argument, you should point to effective policy-makers without college educations. I’ve yet to see a list of those that included anyone who was alive in the last 100 years.

          • Yes, running a business is about staying in the black. But it’s also about providing a quality product or service so that you continue to stay in the black. However, for all these educated policy makers that we have in office, we don’t seem to have too many that seem concerned about operating in the black. Providing roads and essential services is all well and good but you still need to do it with a balanced budget or a surplus.

            But this of course begs another question… what is it that government provides that is essential? Is it horse parks? Is it boat ramps? Is it welfare programs? Seems to me that welfare would be better off being privately taken care of by non-profit agencies and churches than the government. I would argue that government and business are more similar than you believe. Otherwise you wouldn’t run into scenarios where government agencies are directly competing with the private sector from time to time.

            • analogkid says:

              “But it’s also about providing a quality product or service so that you continue to stay in the black. ”

              I agreed with that, but stated that it was a byproduct, not a goal per se. Businesses that aren’t forced (by government or market conditions) to innovate, do not, as a general rule, innovate. See Georgia Power.

              I also agree that boat ramps and horse parks are not essential services, but that is an example of what makes government different. Should the government provide any non-essential services? Example: Would Piedmont Park exist without government? The answer is no. What is now Piedmont Park would be acres of high rise condominium buildings. Good parks improve quality of life, but it’s a definite money loser, and no business would provide it (at least not without admission fees and/or advertisements littering the landscape).

              Horse parks and boat ramps, etc. have to be judged individually. Not all are good ideas and not all are bad ideas.

              We’re getting away from my main point though, which was to get the two commenters above to provide examples of good policymakers with no college education. If they (or anyone else) can do it, I’ll rethink my position that a lack of a degree should be a dealbreaker.

              • Fred Smulavich says:

                I can’t think of one offhand… In terms of “good” policymakers. I mean, Casey doesn’t have a degree buuut I wouldn’t categorize him as such (especially not after this session…)

                I will say, though – Doesn’t Eric Johnson have an architecture degree? And many of our officials have other unrelated degrees, like medical degrees (unless of course they only ever deal with health policy). I’d rather have somebody with integrity, demonstrable experience, agreeable policy, and business acumen than someone with a degree that lacks in one of those areas.

                • trainsplz says:

                  Naah, I can’t think of one, either. But neither do you have any evidence that college is required to do the job, rather than simply being required to get elected.

                  Now, if Handel had flunked college, or if her SATs were absolutely dismal, or something, I’d take that as a datapoint regarding her competence. And I do think she would get creamed in a debate, say, with Barnes. But litmus tests are just silly.

              • “We’re getting away from my main point though, which was to get the two commenters above to provide examples of good policymakers with no college education. If they (or anyone else) can do it, I’ll rethink my position that a lack of a degree should be a dealbreaker.”

                I honestly can’t think of one good policy maker that has no college education. But then again, I don’t follow any policy makers that closely either. Alternatively, I would wager that the list of bad policy makers with college degrees is larger than the list of good policy makers with college degrees. 🙂

                • analogkid says:

                  Thanks for the responses David, Fred, and trainsplz.

                  I agree that a degree does not a good policymaker make (Say that 10 times fast), but I’ve never heard of a good one that didn’t. Sounds like y’all haven’t either, so it’s still a decent litmus test. 🙂

                  Anyone else care to join in?

                  I guess I should also say that, degree or no degree, I think KH’s critical thinking skills are deficient, so I won’t be voting for her no matter what. Many people develop their critical thinking skills in college, so it makes sense to me that therein lies the problem.

          • Lady Thinker says:


            Vice-President Harry Truman (April 12, 1945 – January 20, 1953) did not have a college education during a critical time in American History but had studied law when President Franklin Delano Roosevelt died and Truman took his place. Truman had to decide whether to go along with plans to drop two bombs on Japan and make other decisions to bring America out of WWII. He was also voted in, still without a college degree, for a full term after finishing Roosevelt’s term. Look him up on the Internet because he is an amazing man who has many historical successes.

            • Doug Grammer says:

              NO!!!!! Don’t look it up on the internet!!!!

              LT has agreed that it might not be accurate, or does that only apply to President Reagan quotes?

            • Henry Waxman says:

              I don’t know if I would try to draw parallels between a Republican candidate I supported and the man FDR picked to be successor.

              Further, Harry Truman was born in the 1880’s and completed his post-secondary education via the United States Army in order to become an officer. Karen Handel was born in the 1960’s and dropped out of a night school program at a community college.

              • Henry Waxman says:

                I know there are always outliers, but if someone doesn’t have the tools necessary to complete even an associate’s degree at a community college, it’s hard to imagine that he or she would have the tools necessary to be a successful chief executive officer of the State of Georgia.

                I would love to know why she hasn’t even ATTEMPTED to complete her education in the decades since she dropped out of college. She married someone who is relatively wealthy, and she worked within WALKING DISTANCE to Georgia State University.

                It really does make one wonder about her.

                • Henry Waxman says:

                  The only three conclusions I can draw, are that Karen Handel 1.) lacks the mental tools necessary to complete her college degree, 2.) is too lazy to complete her college degree, and 3.) doesn’t think completing some form of post-secondary education is important.

                  Personally, I don’t want anyone with ANY of those characteristics to be governor of my state.

                  However, if anyone else can come up with a legitimate reason that Karen Handel hasn’t been able to complete her college degree over the past 25+ years, then I would love to see it.

                  • Lady Thinker says:

                    You prefer a child molestor, a former congressman refusing to answer questions about ethical issues, an insurance commissoner who bullies and threatens those he regulates and who, by the way, has an Ethics hearing on June 24th, or a state senator or whatever he was, who owes political favors to the Reynolds family and who forgets to declare $280,ooo in funds?

                    For me, it makes the lack of a college degree less important.

              • Lady Thinker says:


                Analogkid asked for someone within the last hundred years who has succeeded without a college education. I have not research candidates in all fifty states to come up with an answer for him but I have studied the presidents and Truman fit his criteria, someone without a college education within the past 100 years who has been a success.

                Truman fits those requirements. Although Truman was born in the 1880’s, he was president as our nation was coming out of WWII under circumstances that would have tried any person, college educated or not.

                I believe Karen has similar qualities as Truman and similar personality traits, therefore, I think Karen will be just as successful on the state level as Truman was on the federal level.

            • analogkid says:


              Truman was a good find. Effective politicians, regardless of their politics per se, are who I was looking for.

        • Lady Thinker says:

          I can, however, think of three people I know without college educations….


          I posted so far down that this is the post where I totally agreed with you. Just wanted to be clear.

          • Fred Smulavich says:

            Hahaha don’t worry, I didn’t think that you suddenly jumped ship on Karen.

        • Fred Smulavich says:

          The cries of ant-intellectualism are a bit contrived.

          Some people certainly do go off on this elitist thing, but I personally think there are many ways to demonstrate qualification or intellect outside of an Ivy League degree (or any degree, i suppose). If someone had a degree, lectured on constitutional law for a decade, and aligned with my political philosophy, then I would count those things as solid credentials adding to their candidacy.

          However, that education does not de facto make their opinion more credible.

  18. Jimbo says:

    According to GRTL, there have been 18,901 abortions performed for black women in 2008. If GRTL is sooooo concerned about protecting life, why do more black women had abortions in Georgia than in ANY OTHER STATE IN THE COUNTRY?

    GRTL should focus on actually decreasing the number of abortions in GA, rather than playing politics over the issue.
    After all, who is more pro-life? The person who will talk and talk about how pro-life they are, or someone who actually works to prevent abortions from happening?

        • Fertilized eggs have higher cholesterol levels… I’ll take mine unfertilized please. BTW – know anyone that wants a rooster? Ours will either become a meal in another couple of months or get sold for just that reason.

          • analogkid says:

            No, I don’t. Sorry. analogkid is a vegetarian (or “pro-life for chickens,” in keeping with this thread).

              • analogkid says:

                I’d love to, but I’m pretty sure my HOA would have a problem with a live rooster in my yard. They seem to find a problem with everything else as it is. 🙂

                I’m a lacto-ovo vegetarian, so milk and eggs are OK.

                • Lady Thinker says:

                  What about fish? I’m not familiar with all the vegetarian variations but I have a friend who says he is a vegetarian but eats fish.

    • ACConservative says:

      Um, if GRTL actually tried to decrease abortions, than they wouldn’t be able to make money off the issue.

      At the end of the day its all about the dollar signs and huffing and puffing brings in more cash than actually doing something.

  19. Mayonnaise says:

    It’s wonderful to see all the pro-choice folks coming out of the wood-work to defend Karen Handel. Speaks volumes to her real position on the issue.

    • John Konop says:


      Are you calling for a ban on Intravaginal Insemination since eggs die in the process? Are you saying anyone who used this process to create life committed murder?

    • TheSituation says:

      Mayo, you are grasping at straws. Until Johnson becomes a top tier candidate, and that means polling above 5%, then maybe you should sit down and shut up. Lord knows you are an idiot.

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        “Until Johnson becomes a top tier candidate” “sit down and shut up. Lord knows your an idiot.”

        Sir, your dedication to choosing those who lead us based upon ACTUAL CREDENTIALS AND CHARACTER and a respectful, democratic process is refreshing and very indicative of your personal intelligence and worth.

        And John, seriously, the egg thing is nonsense. Please stop.

        • John Konop says:

          …..And John, seriously, the egg thing is nonsense. Please stop…

          Please help me understand the difference between GRTL calling stem cell research murder and IVI not? Not your opinion but real science.

    • In The Arena says:


      Thank you for the clear post. Others are making this out to be way too complicated. Karen Handel was the only candidate in the GOP primary that did not receive the endorsement of one of the prominent pro-life organizations in Georgia. The attacks on this organization for sticking to their principles show the true colors of many posters on this site.

      • Lady Thinker says:

        GRTL would rather support a child molestor so that action alone will throw votes Karen’s way. By the way, you never answered my question as to why you hate her so much. Did you “hit” on her and she put you in your place or do you think trashing her helps your candidate, Eric Johnson?

      • c_murrayiii says:

        Then you really aren’t pro-life then are you? At least not to some people. See, some of this fanatics (and then come in all stripes and issues, not just abortion) well they don’t think you are really on their side unless you act like an idiot about the issue. You have to be a little crazy to be accepted by them. I hate abortion as much as the next person, but I’m more worried about jobs, the encroachment of government power, and the debt than abortion, right now. So that means I’m also probably not pro-life enough for some people. Oh well. I can do without those people.

        Also, for clarification, I’m not a Handel, Deal, etc. supporter. I’m a Bob McDonnell supporter.

  20. bowersville says:

    “GRTL should focus on actually decreasing the nunber of abortions in GA, rather than playing politics over the issue.”

    There isn’t any political power or money in that approach, don’t you know?

    • B Balz says:

      He watched SB169 bottled up in Committee. Kudus to MSBassinger, great points. I feel better, Waffle House always makes it better.

  21. Jane says:

    GARTL should fund Crisis pregnancy centers around the state
    GARTL should pay for Bill Boards highlighting the problem abortions does in the Minority communities. GARTL should pay for TV ads, encouraging girls in trouble to call a Crisis Pregnancy center funded that it helps fund. GARTL should coordinated efforts to aid private adoption agencies across the state. GARTL should work against other concerns like Euthanasia, Fetal body harvesting, and yes even capital punishment.

    Oh, I forgot, Georgia Right Life all ready does these things.

    • B Balz says:

      If they would only stay out of the voters bedroom and clean up the Gulf, they would be perfect.

      • Doug Grammer says:

        Cleaning up the gulf would make them GRTCS, Georgia Right To Clean Shores. The last time I checked, not all conception happens in the bedroom, so they are just interested in life, where ever it may be conceived.

    • GAPoliticsisfun says:

      You bring up an interesting point. This is cut and pasted from the GRTL press release on the endorsements:

      “All candidates that were endorsed by GRTL PAC have signed the PAC affirmation statement which says that they agree with our position on the Personhood of all human beings from fertilization to natural death and the attendant need for a Personhood Amendment to our state Constitution. ”

      Where do Chapman, Deal, Johnson, McBerry, and Oxendine stand on the death penalty? How could they agree to this statement if they support the death penalty?

      • Lady Thinker says:

        Thanks for posting the GRTL press release. That brings up another issue, that the GRTL is against the death penality. I will research the others to see what they say about the death penality and see if it coincides with their pro-life statements.

        • ByteMe says:

          Most “pro-life” people are really “pro-fetus” and not truly “pro-life.” The Catholic Church is consistent in this regard. Most southerners? Not so much.

        • Jimbo says:

          I know that Austin Scott voted for a bill that would let a judge impose the death penalty if most of the jury voted for it but the decision wasn’t unanimous.

        • Something I recently read about the death penalty that I found interesting was that it costs quite a bit more from trial to execution for a death penalty case than for life without parole murder cases. I’ve seen cost differences in the two ranging from hundreds of thousands of dollars to over $1M. I’m not sure how accurate any of those are. Here’s a quote from a Gainesville Times article I found…

          Hall County, with an operating budget of more than $95 million, wouldn’t face a financial crisis if it had to absorb the cost of several death penalty trials in a short period of time. But county commissioners in Dawson County were faced with the grim prospect of raising taxes to fund three death penalty trials connected to one 1991 murder, Mears recalled. The case involved the premeditated murder of a witness preparing to testify in an armed robbery trial and ultimately resulted in co-conspirator Tommy Waldrip being sent to death row.

          “There was a discussion of actually raising the millage rate to pay for the trials,” Mears said.

            • How does the death penalty not have anything to do with the pro-life movement? One talks about the abortion of a fetus not yet born while the other talks about the abortion of an already born living breathing human being. Either you’re pro-life or you’re not. (Yes, I realize the fallacy in this argument, but am posting it anyways as a nudge at the no exceptions pro-life crowd who typically favor the death penalty as their responses are usually fairly humorous…)

              • B Balz says:

                You should have seen the dust-up on this very issue, back a few months ago. I agree with you, BTW.

          • Lady Thinker says:

            Your comments are true, it does cost more for death penalty cases instead of life without the possibility of parole because the taxpayer pays the attorney fees for all the appeals at all the different court levels which can lead to the U.S. Supreme Court. Also, appeals can take as long as 15 years.

            Source: College textbook Corrections in the 21st Century, 4th Edition by Schmalleger and Smykla.
            Publisher: McGraw – Hill, Copyright: 2009, ISBN: 0-07-332643-7

  22. John Konop says:

    GRTL NO exception rule on being PRO-LIFE!

    Does that mean they are for tax payers paying for mandatory feeding for all the starving people in the world?

    Does that mean they are for tax payers paying for mandatory healthcare for all the people who cannot afford it in the world?

    • B Balz says:

      Oh Good Grief. Keep it up and it is Barnes in ’10.

      Many folks are exasperated, tired, and frankly, dismayed that the GOP became a group of older, telling white men:

      Telling young women what they can do,
      Telling all of us what we cannot buy on Sunday,
      Telling the sick that Georgia should ban research in areas of promising science,
      Telling us their deeds and actions are OK, while you and I would goto jail for most of it,
      Telling, telling, telling.

      Some of y’all will give this election to the Dems, because you forgot what the Party is truly about. Smaller government that quits telling us what to do.

      • Fred Smulavich says:

        I agree with you by and large – the Sunday sales thing is silly, and the “their deeds and actions are OK”… Rule of Law. We need a sheriff in town to lock the jokers up and clean house.

        However, the “telling young women” and “banning research” are being greatly slanted in your post there. It’s not about telling women and banning research, it’s about where a person believes life begins, and how that fits into “protecting Life, Liberty, and Property.” Not to mention, adult stem cells will probably be much more useful without the moral / ethical dilemma considering the lower chance of rejection once we focus dollars on that effort to fix the growth problems.

        • B Balz says:

          Slanted? Perhaps. Two scenarios:

          You are alone, at night, and your physician just gave you an adverse and life changing diagnosis. Instantly, your world is uncharted. The abstract concepts of research into cutting edge biotechnology means more to anyone at that time. I have seen this situation, it is not easy, simple, or without consequences.

          Would you then say, as you are now, that an embryo, unused by the in vitro process, should NOT be used for medical research? These unused embryos are currently being thrown away.

          What we have NOW is a life taken without consequence, no benefit, no recrimination. Nothing. Hence the limit on the number of in vitro embryos.

          Would you not support cutting edge research, here in Georgia, that could save your life? Your Mom’s life?

          Understand, I believe you are taking life by doing this research. Thus, the criteria to use embryos is regulated to the highest degree of scientific and medical ethics.

          If you were a pregnant young woman with no easy answers, what would you do? Make no mistake, I truly believe elective abortions are an abomination. Unfortunately, alternatives such as open adoption, teen/unwanted pregnancy prevention, etc. are NEVER going to be 100% effective.

          Thus, making abortion, as reprehensible as it is, legal, safe, and available is an unfortunate necessity in modern society. We tried the other way, and somebody’ grown daughter ending up dead.

          These are questions of what ‘ought’ to be done. These ethical abstractions do not work well in black and white.

          • Fred Smulavich says:

            The situations you are crafting would be more valid if we had some kind of perfect arbitrator, but we don’t. When you create that arbitration system, I’ll stop relying on ethical abstractions for policy initiatives.

            I’m not necessarily an absolutist, yet in the same vein, I think that reducing these scenarios to emotional as opposed to aggregate situations debases the law no matter what. If my daughter was raped, would I individually want her to be able to have an abortion? Emotionally, very possibly. Would I want to kill the man who committed the crime? Very much so.

            Morally, the taking of a life would only deepen the impact of the already horrendous crime committed. Just because emotionally something seems appropriate, it is not justifiable from a moral, idealogical, or (in my opinion) constitutional perspective.

            You and I seem to be ideologically disparate, but I still value your opinions because at the least they’re well reasoned. Please, continue the debate. Try to change my mind.

            • B Balz says:

              Both situations are real. Real life, not something I crafted. That’s why I post here, to help some realize their ideas, opinions and their legislation have consequences beyond ideology.

              Not much more to debate, unless there is an adult beverage involved.

              • Fred Smulavich says:

                I understand the situations, as I have one of those close to home in my own life as well. The choice made was not the one I morally agree with, but I didn’t demonize or proselytize after the fact.

                The experimental treatments, not so much, but in the same vein I think that expanding adult stem cell research is a far wiser course of action because of 1) much lesser chance of rejection and 2) complete avoidance of the ethical issue so that we can allocate funding without the debate.

                And hey, I’ll buy the beverage, but I try to avoid mixing ideological debating and drinking…

          • hannah says:

            Every pregnancy is a potentially life-threatening condition. A coerced pregnancy, whether before or after the implantation of the ovum is an unwarranted assault which should not be socially supported. Moreover, resisting a threat to oneself is an act of self-defense, which every organism is entitled to engage in. Self-sacrifice may be praise-worthy, but not when it is coerced. To coerce is to deprive of liberty. Under our Constitution, individuals may only be deprived of liberty as a punishment meted out after due process of law.

        • kyleinatl says:

          Without Embryonic Stem Cell research, there would have been no advance in Adult Stem Cell work and Adult Stem Cell research has yet to prove anything…thusly all possibilities must remain open, to suggest otherwise is poorly reasoned and based on assumptions that have yet to bear fruit.

      • Ludwig Von Beachbum says:

        Would you rather they send smoke signals? Talk about republicans..LOL Look what you have in the White House. Like he aint telling you WTF to do EVERY DAY ?

        • ByteMe says:

          I’m not hearing anyone from the White House tell me anything to do every day. Get those voices in your head checked by a professional before operating heavy machinery.

        • B Balz says:

          Well, I didn’t vote for OCCUPANT at 1600 PA Ave WDC.

          And yeah, what that group isn’t legislatin’, they are regulatin’. What I am saying our GOP is involved in areas that it has no business in, to wit, abortion, religion, and personal choices.

          In the last thirty years, both Parties have failed us. Which ‘corporate handmaiden’ is worse is like asking Butch Cassidy if the fall was worse than not being able to swim.

  23. Dickson says:

    yeah — this ‘issue’ has brought out the finest of people — the inclusion of McBerry completely blows their credibility — what I appreciated in Massachusetts was the way that RTL triangulated with Scott Brown — knowing that they would gain from his presence, even though they knew he wasn’t completely in their camp — they were not a one note act in MA.

  24. sonofliberty says:

    Becker is an irrelevant charlatan…whose only interest in human life is from conception …to birth…in his latest newsletter he laments the failure of SB 529 to pass the House….contending that the bill “could have stopped the death and destruction that swirls around us each and every day as 3000 babies are killed “…..he further contends that SB 529 was “designed” to challenge Roe v. Wade and “would have protected the women of Georgia from being coerced into having an abortion against their will and would have allowed for full monetary recovery form any abortionist with actual knowledge of the crime”…….he further opines that SB 529 “afforded us a window of opportunity that we may never see again”……..he closes his missive to the faithful with the following
    …….”during the summer, death does not take a holiday. So, neither can we. We hope that you will remember us with the biggest gift that you can give today. Your gift of $100, $50, $25 or more will build up your treasure in Heaven, by helping us help the moms and the unborn babies of Georgia”…….
    ……Mr. Becker……take me off your mailing list……my donations to GRTL will now go elsewhere…..

  25. Hill Rat says:


    I think you had a typo with your coordinating conjunction. I’m pretty sure the title should have been “I’m Pro-Life, BUT I’m For Karen Handel.”

    • trainsplz says:

      Yep. Icarus “was” pro-life. Then they changed pro-life. Crazy dynamic conservatism.

          • Jim Bob says:

            Have you not been listening? Handel became conservative after she left the Fulton County Commision. She was just being liberal/moderate for the constituents of Fulton County. She now wants to serve all of Georgia, so she is/will be conservative…….

      • ByteMe says:

        That’s what happens when lobbyists take control of great buzzwords like “conservative”.

          • ByteMe says:

            Personally, I want that word back and will exchange “fabulous” for it.

            “Are you fabulous?”
            “Yes, I just came out and told my parents that I’m fabulous.”

            It works on so many wonderful levels.

            • Lady Thinker says:

              That would help the people living in Gay, Georgia. I don’t think there is a Fabulous, Georgia.

  26. Jane says:

    The Catholics with in the pro-life movement are very anti-death penalty. Others take the position that society only has the right to kill in self defence. If that was an accepted position among most people, both abortion and the Death penalty would still exist, but be very rare.

  27. Jane says:

    I would include Mary Boyert and Carolyn Garcia as pro-life activists who as good Catholics are as strongly against the anti-death penalty as they are anti-abortion and pro-adoption.

  28. Edwin Gravitt says:
    I am opposed to abortion, but I believe this issue should be settled in the criminal courts, not the supreme court, nor any legislative body. If a female goes through with an abortion, then those who oppose that abortion because they believe, as I do, should press for charges of 1st degree murder to be brought against her. That she can be tried by a jury of her peers, just as any other person is charged with a crime. Then if the jury acquits her that should be the end of it. No trial in the court of public opinion should ever occur in our America. Innocent people have been caused grief by the court of public opinion and those who participate in stopping this aggression on liberty, lest they too become its victim. This issue will never be settled by laws or a fiat law court. Laws are meant to be violated and create criminals. It is our duty to nullify juries to see that this no longer happens here. Now, I know that what I have said here might be a bit puzzling for some, but think about some alternative to asking crooked career politicians to resolve this issue. It aint going to happen and we need to get with electing people like Ray McBerry other newcomers with like agendas. Thank you for your time.

  29. macho says:

    I wonder if McBerry had ever knocked up one of his teenage students how quick he would be heading to a “Cash for Pawn Shop” with some of his Confederate memorabilia.

  30. Lady Thinker says:


    Barren is an Old Testament word and not part of the New Testament Christian behavior as exhibited by Dan Becker in his personal attack on Karen.

    According to the definition of “barren” from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, Dan Becker has a “barren mind.”

    Main Entry: 1bar•ren
    Pronunciation: \ˈber-ən, ˈba-rən\
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English bareine, from Anglo-French barain, perhaps of Celtic origin; akin to Middle Welsh brynar fallow land
    Date: 13th century
    1 : not reproducing: as a : incapable of producing offspring —used especially of females or matings b : not yet or not recently pregnant c : habitually failing to fruit
    2 : not productive: as a : producing little or no vegetation : DESOLATE b : producing inferior crops c : unproductive of results or gain : FRUITLESS 3 : DEVOID, LACKING —used with of
    4 : lacking interest or charm

    5 : lacking inspiration or ideas

  31. Lady Thinker says:

    Well, it isn’t posting the entire last three lines but if you want to read the definition, the link is above.

  32. debbie0040 says:

    I am neutral in the governor’s race, but will tell you my hubby is very much pro life and very conservative and he is supporting Handel. He said that she meets his criteria and he is the one that will cast his vote, not GRTL.

  33. Game Fan says:

    For the new reader, GAME FAN is pro-choice. Not really a “line in the sand” as described before, more like a non-line-thingy. What disturbs me the most is the litmus tests and the “race” and “religion” ect… which in my opinion is a sure sign of someone who’s never taken a course in economics.

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