Two items of note, neither favorable to the Graves for Congress campaign:
1) News broke of the Bartow County Bank suing Tom Graves and his business partner, Senate Majority Leader Chip Rogers, in an attempt to settle a debt for a loan on investment property. The bank is looking for $2.25 million, and is claiming that Graves was “insolvent” at the time of the loan, as well as that he conducted a “fraudulent transfer” of the property.
Graves, it should be noted, already had a legal action against that bank, and the suit from the bank and the serious sounding charges are routine in situations where there are past due loan balances. There is nothing routine, however, when a person shares the titles of both “candidate” and “defendant”. There’s no way to spin this as good news.
2) John Linder has apparently recorded a robo-call calling Graves a liar regarding his activities campaigning with Linder for the FairTax. This one is quite a bit more curious, as it appears to be from Left Field, and there is photographic evidence and agendas/programs demonstrating that Graves has traveled to and appeared at events beyond Georgia with Linder and folks like Herman Cain in support of the Fairtax.
My gut here is that this one is quite forgetable, and some investigation as to who pushed Linder’s buttons is in order. But there’s one quote from the robo-call that will linger: Linder claims to not know who Tom Graves is. Tom Graves is supported on these pages because he helped found the 216 Group, a bastion for conservatism in the Georgia State House. He also was involved in a very public stand against former House Speaker Glenn Richardson.
For Linder to claim he doesn’t know who Graves is demonstrates that Linder has been isolated in D.C., and doing nothing to help build or reinforce the conservative movement here in Georgia. There will be no blowback to the retiring Linder over this, but Rob Woodall, Linder’s chief of staff, is running on the record of the continuation of the Linder dynasty.
Linder has demonstrated with this weird call that he is out of touch with Georgia conservatives. He’s also provided a death blow to any chance of Rob Woodall getting elected to Congress. Woodall, by assoiciation, is now officially out of touch with Georgia conservative politics.
I’ll have more to say about this later today. I appreciate the other front pagers holding back until I could get back to my computer and post this. I make no apologies for backing Tom Graves on these pages. But I also understand the importance of us posting all the relevent news on a campaign. So, for those looking to take their shots, have at it.
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Wow! Just plain wow!
from last night…
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23707981/index.html
I guess the bastions of fiscal conservatism (Club for Growth) made the right choice with the true fiscal conservative, Tom “not so hot of a business record” Graves. Oh, the irony. Perhaps the Club for Growth loses some of its clout as the fiscal conservatives…because last time i checked, borrowing $2.25 million without being able to pay it back and then committing fraud so as to not have to re-pay the loan is not fiscal conservatism…but i could have my definitions of conservative and liberal mixed up
The Club for Growth are a clever bunch. Recognizing that their real interest, to protect the revenue stream of the moneyed class, is not likely to garner much popular support, they not only hide behind a generalization (what kind of growth?) but challenge the candidates most likely to support the agenda of their clients as being insufficiently conservative.
Conservatives are about keeping the control of money in the hands of the financial class, people who accumulate money by capturing a trickle of interest from each transaction. The original funders of the Club for Growth, Jackson Stephens and his descendants are the same people who bankrolled the Bushes, Clinton, Clark, Huckabe and Romney. They are equal opportunity funders of “opportunists” — whoever’s most likely to do their bidding. If I remember correctly, Jackson Stephens was one of the prime movers of the Augusta National Golf Club. The interest in Georgia is not a happenstance.
Fiscal conservatives are interested in keeping finance in the hands of the gentry and the gentry relies on heritage, family connections and speculation to stay wealthy. Buying a hotel with no money is an entirely consistent enterprise. Being irresponsible with other people’s money is how the rich stay rich.
Who handles the money is the central conflict between conservatives and government BY the people. As long as government is in the hands of conservatives, it can handle all the money it wants; “rampant (rabble) populism” is what’s to be avoided, according to Judd Gregg, the retiring Senator from New Hampshire. Can’t have the people in control of the money. Heaven forbid that those who own it actually control it.
Yes, and the Tri-lateral commission runs the world!
http://www.gravesliemeter.com/
Just received word that Tom outraised Lee 3:1 on the last disclosure…~$150k to ~$50k.
It looks like purely negative, personal attack campaigns aren’t attracting any new supporters to the angry guy from Gainesville.
Judging from how the Hawkins-Bots on here are turning themselves blue in the face trying to shovel any “dirt” they can find on Tom out there…it is clear they see the only path to electing their democrat-turned-republican to Congress is to try and destroy Tom Graves. That’s the spirit to get this nation back on track! Geeze.
Why send Tom to defeat the deficit if he won’t even deal with his? How can we trust Tom Graves?
lol. Whatever.
Speaking of deficits, isn’t it Lee’s campaign that’s sitting on a $145,000.00 or so loan?
Tom’s campaign doesn’t have any debt.
Keep diggin’.
“CALHOUN — The man who runs the aging, low-budget Oglethorpe Inn here jokingly calls it the Methamphetamine 6.”
http://www.ajc.com/news/9th-district-candidate-majority-537811.html
Spin that one for me…
GOPGrave Digger, Tom has no campaign debt as you put it, because he has no money that he can put in his campaign. Lee Hawkins has a job. What is it Tom does for a living?
How sad for Georgia citizens who will once again have the choice of bad or worst politicans. Hawkins is the worst thing that could happen to GA. Tom Graves looks like a bad choice also.
I live in Hall County, you do not want Hawkins as your rep.
SAD, SAD day for Georgia.
Republicans should have cleaned up their own party, as an independent its scary you have so many bad ones running for office.
So the author of the FairTax distances himself from Graves to back Hawkins, and Graves supporters now attack him? Linder is a giant among conservatives–he’s not out of touch with them.
This is BIG, and I don’t expect it to hurt Woodall one bit.
I’m no Graves supporter.
But if Linder can claim he didn’t know who Graves was, given Graves elevated status as a Georgia Conservative speaking at national events – and Linder spoke ten minutes after him at a FairTax event – then my conclusion is that Linder either has no control of the FairTax, he’s out of touch with reality, or he is a liar.
You tell me which one is true. After the way you and others here have represented Hawkins on this blog, I wouldn’t vote for him or Graves.
The irony of two guys running for congress fighting over credit for a tax bill that is bad joke
I still don’t know what each candidate plans to do for the citizens once they are elected.
My bet: they both do exactly what the Republican “Leadership” in Congress tells them to do. Neither strikes me as all that independent.
Keep in mind that the event was almost a year ago, and Linder said he didn’t know who Graves was at that time.
“Linder is a giant among conservatives”
Ummm, ok.
He was a giant. I used to respect and admire Linder. Now he nothing more than just a puppet of Hawkins.
If I had to guess I would say that this bank is in trouble with the FDIC and is trying to call in loans that they promised to renew. The FDIC is probably making them do it to raise capital. This is happening everywhere right now.
If that is what is going on you can blame Obama, Congress, and the FDIC for the stupid market to market rules that is causing an unprecedented contraction of credit in our economy.
Good guess…. Consent order announced this week.
http://www.daily-tribune.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=D77DB83A-19B9-E2E2-672EBF6509EB66A6
Bartow County Bank enters into consent order with FDIC
Staff Reports
Thursday, May 27, 2010
Bartow County Bank announced Tuesday it has entered into a Consent Order with the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation and the Georgia Department of Banking and Finance in an effort to strengthen its financial position.
Rebelyelp,
What method do you recommend for valuations?
Like the rest of the GOP establishment that has the big banks’ back, he probably favors the “mark up all of your assets to make profits look great when it’s bonus time, mark them down to 0 when it’s bailout time” valuation method.
A common sense market approach which doesn’t value tangible assets at fire sale prices. FASB is getting there but still has a long way to go. For real estate assets a discounted cash flow approach would be much more realistic than comparable sales.
Rebelyelp,
The problem is if you use rental value and or income stream the values are even lower than the fire sale price many times. And you would also have to mark down current assets against the future lower rents via market conditions.
The reason why many have not jumped back in is because most of us do not have a good-feel for the bottom. And we have banks holding and hopping values go up before time runs out. And people with money are holding for vulture deals because unless it is a steal why risk the cash.
Welcome to the real world! Talk to anyone doing deals and I am sure you will hear similar opinions.
The recent “fire sale prices” for many real estate assets has been close to zero, sometimes less than zero if you count the environmental and tax liabilities. But these “vulture deals” are gone…. which you would know if you were actually doing deals, or even reading trade sources or general business publication like the Business Chronicle. A discounted cash flow valuation will result in much higher valuations than will comparable sales.
Rebelyelp,
Not true at all. Most of the real-estate that is going cheap is abandon property with major issues. If you can show me all the great deals you are talking about, call me because I will buy all of it.
“He’s also provided a death blow to any chance of Rob Woodall getting elected to Congress. Woodall, by assoiciation, is now officially out of touch with Georgia conservative politics.”
Not that making sure a D.C. insider is not elected to Congress is a bad thing…
We don’t need one as Governor either.
Agreed.
How many people have to sue Tom Graves for people to get the message! TOM GRAVES IS A CRIMINAL. I work too hard for this guy to spend my tax dollars paying for bad business deals. A person like this seeks public office for financial gain and abuses their power and influence to cover their crime.
Yesterday, Tom Graves had his pants pulled down and was spanked on Main Street. I think it was more than just “a bad day” for him.
It’s humiliating for everyone, and more bad news for the Republican brand in Georgia. By all means blame a retiring Congressman, take retribution on his protege and eat some more of your own.
Once again, here is the money shot: The bank is looking for $2.25 million, and is claiming that Graves was “insolvent” at the time of the loan, as well as that he conducted a “fraudulent transfer” of the property.
If the bank is claiming he was insolvent at the time of the loan, what does that say about the due diligence of the bank?
After seeing some of the banking schemes in Georgia, nothing would surprise me. LUV some of these bankers….
You think having two legislators — one of whom has a lot of pull with state banking regulations — on the loan might have had something to do with allowing the loan? You think that maybe Graves lied during the loan process?
I do. Another “conservative” shows his true colors.
How can anyone not know who Tom Graves is? He is after all the chosen one.
And this robocall is in reference to Graves stump speech where he says “i am the only candidate in this race that has traveled the country preaching the fairtax with john linder, hermain caine, and Joe the Plumber”. I would assume Linder heard of this and would be a better judge of whether this is a lie or not. And as you heard in the robocall Linder said he spoke to Graves on the phone about this issue and still felt a statement was in order. So i dont know how you can spin that to anything but Linder didnt like what Tom said to him on the phone. Linder felt so strongly about this he involved himself in a race he never intended to because he then knew that Graves wasnt being truthful and using his name in doing so. And going to Missouri once is much different than “traveling the country” as Tom puts it.
And Ic, it might be a stretch trying to get people to believe that FRAUDulent transfer of property is routine. Fraud is routine? Maybe amongst politicians in D.C. If you still can support and vote for Tom then you are voting for the status quo in Washington and deserve congressman like this. There is no way that FRAUDulent transfer of anything is ever routine, unless you are a crook…end of story…
I do, however, commend you for doing the right thing and making a post on this for what its worth
JOEL GO AWAY
Looks like a good smear campaign at work. Probably will be as effective as the first one….
Funny thing. Back in ’06 had an opportunity to go to DC with a group of Republican friends. We were there for a few days and met with quite a number of notable Republican people. The last day, myself and a friend went to Capitol Hill to knock on the doors of our Republican delegation. Was greeted warmly by Gingery, Price and Westmoreland. In fact, that invited us into their office. They were genuinely excited to see some Georgians. We even got a chance to meet the infamous Cynthia McKinney. Even she was elated to see some Georgians. She didn’t disappoint us. She was Cynthia McKinney, ever the conspiratorial although she was warm and gracious and invited us into her office too.
When we made it to the congressman’s office this thread mentioned, we were taken back with the cold shoulder snide treatment of his staff. I’m a nobody, but the person I was with visiting wasn’t. We walked away with some great photos and memories to talk about for years. The one that stands out is the contrast with McKinney and Linder’s office…. One was one we laughed and scoffed at while the other was one we held in high regard…. Robo call away congressman. Certainly doesn’t hit high in my book.
FRAUDULENT transfer!…are you guys not wanting to understand what that means? Just because Graves says this is smear politics doesnt make it so, Hawkins did nothing to make Graves FRAUDULENTLY transfer funds. When i checked the story, Hawkins has nothing to do with this bank suing Graves for his FRAUDULENT transfer of funds…i feel like I’m on crazy pills…$2.25 MILLION! And you are trying to justify putting him in charge of a bigger purse in D.C?
If you read the pleading, they are alleging a fraudulent conveyance of title. Not a fraudulent transfer of funds.
Even the AJC article says: “The bank also claims Graves initiated a “fraudulent transfer” of property in order to frustrate the bank’s efforts to pursue the debt.”
You may be on crazy pills if you read that as fraudulent transfer of funds.
Correct, it’s the transfer of assets that might have been used to repay the loan in an effort to defraud the bank of its potential claim on the assets.
Not something done by accident.
You are absolutely right Byte. I’m not defending Graves or the bank here, but this is just a pleading and things are often more complicated than what is in a pleading. That’s why we have trials.
One thing is for sure, no matter the outcome of this case – this is bad for Graves.
I didn’t think you were defending him. I was just adding some clarifying text to what you wrote.
Yes, this doesn’t look good if there’s a monster loan out there that he took and then claims he can’t pay off and then transferred assets to another entity he semi-controls to frustrate the bank from collecting on the loan. There’s really no good way to spin that. But some people here will certainly try.
Exactly. As alluded to above, the Bartow County bank is now under a FDIC consent order. Due to the overwhelming declared bankruptcies in GA, this could likely be their next stop.
So, what will happen, a larger bank will take on their deposits in a FDIC assisted transaction where the FDIC is now on the hook for their defaulted loans. Translation = increased taxes.
Not to mention the administrative costs of legal proceedings in an effort to claim seniority over the purported collateral transfer.
No, the FDIC is funded by the financial industry. If there is a temporary shortage of funds, they will borrow from the Treasury, just like Goldman Sachs, and pay it back. The reason the FDIC is resisted, as is the newly proposed regulator of investment banks, is because the regulation consists of a pot of money into which the regulated have to contribute funds, which are then unavailable for speculative investment (gambling). It’s the same issue that was in play in the Social Security privatization agenda — how to get more money into the hands of the financial class for them to play with and siphon off a stream of interest. The old fashioned way of “making money” is by somebody else “working” and the financial class (insurers, bankers, brokers, bond sellers) collecting their share as “interest.”
The assumption behind the argument that the agents of government aren’t needed to “protect” the financial interests of the people is simply that the people, ideally, have neither money nor financial interests. All the people can count on is being allowed to use money, briefly and at a cost.
Think of that: our money has been monetized. It’s like putting a charge on each use of a letter of the alphabet.
Well Ronald, that makes more sense then. A “fraudulent transfer of assets” is surely not enough for people to drop their support. Glad you you clear that up.
Gimme a break.
A fraudulent transfer of funds is essentially stealing. Like a scheme you see on TV to steal money from a bank via the computer system. That’s a criminal matter.
This isn’t. That is the only point I was trying to make. You can have a piece of my Kit-Kat bar, but if I was in the ninth district I wouldn’t vote for Hawkins simply because of how his supporters on here have conducted themselves on this website. To be simply stating facts, and even indicate I’m not defending Graves, and to be responded to like this is an insult. Graves has problems. Hawkins supporters are smarmy trolls apparently.
You should check the story again, but it does not allege fraudulent transfer of FUNDS. It alleges that the transfer of land from one party to another was inappropriate. If the land in question was part of the security for the loan they might have a point. They might not, too. Depends on the facts which you and I don’t know. But feel free to ignorantly speculate….
Linder is not a giant among conservatives. His claim to fame is the he supports the Fair Tax and he is not well thought of by many conservatives. It is pretty funny watching you Hawkins people, spin, spin , spin. You would put Clinton to shame.
I have a far more favorible opinion of Westmoreland than I do Linder.
Debbie,
If he is not well thought of by conservatives as you claim then why did Graves think it so important to make him and integral part of every single one of his stump speeches? Would seem it would hurt his case if what you say is true?
And spin spin spin? For a Graves supporter to say that of someone else is laughable. Everything out of Graves mouth is spin. Toting the Jobs bill that hasnt been signed as a bill that “is the shot to the arm Georgia businesses need” when in reality it wont do a single thing is spin. Graves saying he “helped lead the way in co-authoring the toughest immigration laws in Georgia” is complete spin. Unless there is a notation on the bill where it indicates who “helped co-author” something that i dont know about it would seem Graves runs on the assumption the average voter won’t verify these things because they dont know how. Graves campaigns on soundbites and that is how we have ended up with the congressman we have. They look slick, don’t go to in depth on anything because they know the average voter won’t do their research. Granted, if you ask any consultant he/she will tell you that is how you win a campaign. And that is also how we voters end up with the status quo
Lets see what Conservatives think of Linder:
ACU rating for 2008: 100, Life: 95.67
Club for Growth 2008-2009: 100%
National Right to Life: 100%
Ok, seems these conservative groups do think highly of Linder.
I would also say the Linder just destroyed his Chief of Staff’s chances at election…
How is Lt. Gov Ralph Reed doing these days welcher?
Reed’s having your steak dinner over at Debbie’s Diner.
. . . . along with Cindye Coates
Steak dinner? WTF?
It’s an 06 GOP Primary thing . . .
Fork >>>>>>>>>>>> Graves
Are we going to have a new name for the followers who will stick with Graves through anything? Graves-bots seems not funny enough.
Graves Diggers?
That’s funny, I like Grave Diggers, that name make since. Debbie Ellis can be the Chair for the Kool Aid drinking Grave Diggers.
GRAVE – DIGGERS!!! That is so brilliant!
Zombies
Wasn’t it the Graves people who said Mike Evans was unelectable because he had a problem with a loan?
And if Graves is in the motel business, why doesn’t he ever mention it outside of court filings? Nothing wrong with being in the motel business, yet it never appears anywhere in his campaign material.
If only Mike just had an alleged loan problem….
That’s because he calls himself a developer. He is no developer. He runs motels. As an architect myself who is going back to school to get my MBA in order to become a developer, I find this very frustrating.
Do you know anything that he has developed? Serious question. I’ve been trying to figure out just what he does for a living for months — that’s why the motel seems so interesting. I don’t think he’s developed anything.
With all the carrying on about Club for Growth and business just what has Tom Graves done to be called a businessman?
WOAH WOAH GUYS. Everyone seems to be jumping to conclusions. Linder said he didn’t know who Graves was at the Columbia, MO FairTax rally that they both spoke at. That was about a year ago.
Let’s remember, Tom did not have near the name ID that he does today and was just another of the many state representatives at the state capitol. I don’t think its a requirement for Linder to know every single state rep in the state of Georgia for him to be representing the people of the 7th District in the US Congress.
Graves has been stating that he “traveled the COUNTRY” with Linder speaking for the FairTax. Simply not true. Showing up at one event in MO that Linder was at and making that claim is simply a lie. You cannot forget that you didn’t happen to travel around the country with a Congressman.
You may notice on Tom’s page ( http://gravesforcongress.org/pages/49/all-the-proof ) that he has removed the statement that he actually traveled “WITH LINDER” that was just put on the page yesterday. Why would he remove that? I don’t assume they realize people can take screen shots?
Tom then posts ON his facebook page in response to someone: “but the facts are on our side. It’s just so sad that the Hawkins campaign would abuse a forgetful man like that.” To call Linder a “forgetful man” is disrespectful and also proves he doesn’t know John at all.
OH, AND BY THE WAY, GRAVES DELETED THAT FROM HIS FACEBOOK ACCOUNT AS WELL. (Must have forgotten about screen shots again).
I have not had a dog in this race. Everything I HAD seen from Tom for the most part, I liked. But this is really concerning. The facts are there that Graves did not travel around the country with Linder. It’s hardly a topic for debate nor did he travel ANYWHERE WITH Linder. I’m just baffled that they would make these statements. Makes no sense and he loses a lot of credibility.
FACT: Graves did NOT travel the country speaking about the FairTax.
FACT: Graves has never traveled ANYWHERE with Linder.
If you choose to ignore that you are just blindly standing up for something that is simply not true. Graves doesn’t even attempt to claim that he’s been anywhere other than MO for the FairTax. Doesn’t sound like traveling the country to me.
I’m tired of the BS.
(looking forward to the bombs launched my way.
keep in mind, everything I have said can be backed up with facts and up until now have never had a negative word to say about Tom.)
“Travelling the country with Linder” is a pejorative
Thank you for an excellent and intelligent point. There aren’t many of those here.
Dude… Seth… looks like its there to me! Don’t be a pick-a-parter. If you go on a trip with someone, you don’t forget about it. If you do, you are then by definition “a forgetful man.” It is pretty disappointing that RounDtree would mislead Linder like this and get him to do a robo that doesn’t even make much sense. He contradicts himself in the message saying Graves wasn’t there and then saying when he was there he didn’t know who he was!
This is what appears on Graves’ website:
“NOT TRUE. Tom was in fact there, along with many other FairTax supporters. In fact Tom TRAVELED WITH John Linder, Herman Cain, and Neal Boortz!”
http://gravesforcongress.org/pages/49/all-the-proof
Re listen to the robo call bobby. He said Tom was there in MO but wasnt with him, and obviously wasnt duped because Linder had a conversation with Tom about it and THEN decided to do the robo call. Linder spoke directly to Tom about the issue and then decided enough was enough with the crook and he wanted to set the record straight. Yes, Tom was in MO, Linder was making thing point about him traveling around the country with Linder talking about the fair tax. Not true. Had he said “I spoke in MO with Linder, Caine, Boortz in 2009 on the FairTax” that would have been a true statement. But he didn’t and continued to mislead the voters by saying he “traveled around America with John Linder speaking about the FairTax”. Try and make it easier for yourself to sleep at night all you want but the fact of the matter is Linder spoke to Tom about this issue before he did anything and THEN felt obligated to set the record straight. Linder gave Tom the opportunity to do that on the phone but he obviously decided to keep lying, so he left Linder with no choice – I wouldnt want to be in a liars stump speech either
Frankly, I’m surprised Rountree didn’t get DA Porter or Sheriff Conway to sic on Tom Graves.
@Bobby Butterworth – Now it’s getting really funny. I don’t think you guys are getting what a screen shot is? The Graves site said that he traveled “with Linder” then was removed. After my post here, it now says “In fact Tom TRAVELED WITH John Linder” and in bold text this time to make it very clear
As I sit here and look at the three versions, I have to wonder why the Graves campaign can’t stick to one answer.
And remember, I had no issue with Tom prior to all of this. All Tom had to say was “I overstated my involvement in speaking on behalf of the FairTax” and tell Linder the same when the two spoke. Instead the campaign is very busy adding statements, deleting statements, writing facebook comments, deleting facebook comments, deleting facebook users, blocking facebook users etc. Doesn’t seem like the man of the people to me…
Sethweathers,
It’s hysterically funny…just think of all the people that buy into it???
Tom never overstated his association with Linder. It is a fact that he travelled across the country with John, Neal, and Herman, to support the FairTax.
Now show me these screen shots. I’m having a hard time following your post with out them.
What about “all across the county with John Linder?” I think we all know what that means or implies and is simply dishonest.
Thanks for the offer, but I’ll hold onto the screen shots for now – must be frustrating to try and cover up things and not know what I have or haven’t saved.
By the way, did they take Tom’s car or John’s?
Post a copy of them on Flickr and drop the links here.
Sorry for the really long post
Sorry for the long post
Now apologize for the repeat of your apology.
Graves and Rogers have a company that borrows money from a Bank; they guarantee the loan; the company can’t pay the loan; they get sued. Their hire a big name Atlanta lawyer. Then, they blame the Bank — “its the Bank’s fault I can’t pay my debt.” Isn’t this the blame the victim mentality that the Graves-Rogers style Georgia GOP politicians hate? Don’t they hate it when someone does not take responsibility for their own actions? I guess its always different when you are the one in the hot seat. “See. my case has merit, I really was mistreated by the Bank” Graves and Rogers hate a lawyer (except when they need a lawyer to help them).
Your forgetting the part where the bank improperly declared the loan in default after reneging on a promise to refinance it at more favorable terms. The bank failed to live up to a promise to convert it to an interest-only loan with a 2.5 percent interest rate.
Personal responsibility, ya know… What Graves campaigns on daily… Guess it only applies to everyone but him.
Yes, and lets not forget putting a really attractive piece of property into a trust before the bank can foreclose on it to satisfy the loan.
Stand up guy.
Check this out Alan; http://www.ajc.com/news/9th-district-candidate-majority-537811.html.
“personal responsibility” means that a single person, acting on his own hook, is responsible for any negative result. That’s a statement of fact. A person, acting in partnership or as part of a group, is entitled to blame someone else. That’s both a statement of fact and of approbation. Being able to blame someone else is a prime benefit of being submissive to a group.
“personal responsibility” is a negative because it involves a need to admit being wrong or in error. And being wrong is the opposite of being right. The “religious right” is a group whose members are never wrong because they have submitted to a group that’s united by the belief in a deity. Not only are they right, but all blame for error is erased by being assigned to a deity who can do no wrong. So, even if an event seems to be a negative, it must be right because the deity ordered it.
You all need to be nice to Tom Graves. According to Icarus, Tom had a bad day yesterday.
Tom believes in 5 things. They are his Conservative Test. You can go see it for yourself.
http://www.gravesforcongress.org/pages/39/toms-5-way-conservative-test
I would take special not of point 4 “Promotes personal responsibility.” You know he thinks we all need to take personal responsibility serious unless we make a contract with another person or entity to pay back money we borrow from others. I wonder if Tom cares that his backing out of paying the loan back will probably cost someone their job at that bank. I wonder how many people will loose significant funds in their retirement account if that bank goes under? I wonder how many people could have received loans they did not qualify for if their friend would have been Chip Rogers our faithful Majority Leader and member of Banking and Financial Institutions? I wonder lots of things?
I do as well Hank. I wonder how someone can say they have principles of any kind and still support Tom “not so ethical” Graves. I can’t help but think about the Obama zombies when reading all this. No matter how many warning came out about Obama’s extreme left associations and leanings people still blindly followed him…and now look where we are.
I guess the followers think he will have an epiphone like the rest of our congressman when they get to D.C. News flash: If you have to lie to get there, your gonna have to lie to stay there. I can’t imagine anything scarier, a politician in D.C. who had to lie to get there is backed by CFG’s deep pockets…the possibilities are endless for more fraudulent practices
in case you missed it last night…
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23707981/index.html
I hear a lot of what sounds like buyers remorse. Even if Tom wins the special, he is dead meat in the regular primary a few weeks away.
Here’s the real irony no one is commenting on:
Graves and his ilk are some lawyer and lawsuit hatin’ jokers. So lets look at the “complicated questions of law and fact” presented here:
1. He guaranteed the repayment of $2.25 million to Bartow County Bank;
2. He can’t or won’t pay it back. So what does this bastion of tort reform and personal responsibility do? He hires a lawyer and sues the bank!!!!!!
Haters of lawyers and “frivolous lawsuits”, they don’t get any more frivolous than that.
Icarus,
Every piece of real estate tells a story, doesn’t it? We need to have a chat…
3:30 is a little early to be posting while intoxicated…
Hill Rat,
Seriously, you have to result to insults…typical…all I have to do is sit back and watch the comedy!
Icarus,
Also, why don’t we Linger a little Longer at Lake Oconee…why don’t you post something about that?
You are hearing things if you think Graves supporters have changed their minds in any way.
Hank, you remind me of Tommy S.
That comment, 0040, sounds like a koolaide drinking cult follower. The same kind that followed Obama into the inferno.
If you support this kind of candidate, with the facts as they are now shown, then I wonder how we will ever see reform in politics.
“Claims” in any legal pleadings are not necessarily “facts.” They are allegations, and allegations can be proven true or proven false. If proven true, then they become “facts.” If proven false, they signify that the plaintiff wasted a whole lot of money on a law firm.
But most of the time, they settle. No facts, just done.
My thoughts are that Tom is not as smooth as most politicians that live their lives cheating banks and us, the taxpayers. I, personally, know several politicians that have hidden property they own in corporate names with attorneys as their registered agents, renigged on their loans to banks , and filed bankruptcy personally.
NOW, those are the smooth operators and I would imagine Lee knows of all of these tricks!!!! Mainly, because several of the people supporting him are doing this.
Putting assets in the name of a corporation is not an issue to me. The issue to me is if during the loan procurement, the assets were listed on a PFS, and, when it became apparent the loan would default THEN the assets were protected. If the bank made the loan with full knowledge of the assets being elsewhere, buyer beware.
I have not kept up with the story, other than what is here. I look forward to learning more of it.
Willow knows all,
Politicians…you have to love them! Let’s get back to “Public Servant”…and we all know who that is!!!
Icarus,
Can I be a Front Page Poster?
Icarus, I think this is a great idea; just think of all of the great posts about Ray “Cotton Picking Dragon Slayer” Boyd we would get.
Hill Rat,
Who is your “career politician” of choice?
Just curious…
I get it…you have to “connected” to become a FPP!
Who writes this for Monica Kaufmann to read? Chip Rogers is Senate Majority Leader not “Senate Minority Leader.”
Darned illiterate media.
Icarus,
I’m serious about the Front Page Poster…I have concerns about your judgement, and I don’t want you to embarass Fayette County…we have a reputation to uphold! (LOL)
Yeah, come on, Icarus. Give dj front page posting privileges. What’s the worst that could happen?
Ask your self this… Why is it that Lee Hawkins is attacking Tom on personal issues, playing gutter politics. Because Lee can not have a serious issue to issue debate. Why aren’t we talking about how to solve America’s problems. Instead were slinging mud. Come on Hawkins lets discuss the issues.
Hey bobspolitics/Grave Digger, I think a great idea would be to have a real debate. Can someone set that up? And I mean a real debate where the 2 candidates go head to head and question each other.
Ask yourself this: why is it that Graves Diggers were just earlier this week touting Graves’ business background and ridiculing Hawkins’ dentist background and now they’re not talking about that so much?
Ask yourself this: what kind of business acumen do you think it takes to arrange for a $2.25 million loan and then default on it and hide your assets to keep the bank from collecting on the loan?
The perfect kind of acumen to become GOVERNOR!
Excellent point. +8 years
When did Hawkins control the AJC, Gainesville Times, Accessnorthga.com and WSBTV? Gosh you folks are getting, well have always been, ridiculous!
I say Hawkins didn’t have to, his minions did…
That makes sense. Hawkins staff and supporters coaxed Jim Galloway into posting it on the AJC and Lori Geary into doing a report.
Wow. Personal respsonsibility?
You guys don’t deny any wrong doing, your just mad that he got caught….
Love the idea of a real debate . . .
Hmmmm, who would win that??? Doubt the Hawkins people would agree. I saw the guy speak at a forum once. OUCH!
I remember a ton of debates when Lee’s consultants were telling him he was going to win it outright, Lee skipped them all.
Now that he is lagging way behind, instead of getting out to talk with more voters, to try and convince them why he is better suited for Congress, he hides behind his continuous negative gutter politics.
It is a real shame that he has stooped to this level.
Lee has consultants?!?!?!?!?!?! Where have they been over the past year?
Justin Tomczak, why do you and your buddies aka Graves Diggers contend that Lee Hawkins controls media? Lee hasn’t even made a statement on your boy, Tom Graves, except that he hasn’t read the lawsuit. If Lee sued Tom Graves for 2.2 M then I would have raised eyebrows. Keep trying to spin it buddy.
QUESTION, Georgia Conservative??
Are you claiming that Lee knew nothing of this lawsuit until it broke on WSB?
Hide behind gutter politics? You guys ignore the fact that Graves is business illiterate and only see the fact that the story hurt Graves as the actual problem. Hawkins didn’t make Graves do any of these sketchy things…do you really expect us to believe that Hawkins coaxed the Bartow Bank into trying to get their $2.25 million back? Someone else raised a good point…how many people had to loose their jobs as result of people doing things such as what Graves has been accused of?
You Grave Diggers only see the fact that he got caught as the issue…please don’t bring the true conservatives down by continuing to claim you are one, your making us look worse than the other republican crooks in D.C already have. We don’t need to send another one…
Oh ya, and I forgot to mention he is in the CFG’s pocket…even more comforting. And if you don’t think the CFG is going to expect something in return if they get him elected with half a million dollars you are kidding yourself
I’m sure Tom will say that Lee Hawkins himself penned this article; http://www.ajc.com/news/9th-district-candidate-majority-537811.html...
about as sleazy as it gets ….
http://www.ajc.com/news/9th-district-candidate-majority-537811.html
I do find it interesting that Graves and Rogers owned and operated a flop house motel which probably catered to a large number of illegal aliens from south of the border who worked in the carpet mills and construction industry in Gordon County
Further, from the article, I like how Rogers takes the “I sold it” defense so its not my problem. Problem is, although the place was sold, the loan wasn’t paid off .. he’s still on the guarantee. He is still very much involved in this.
Just like Sgt. Schultz, Graves and Rogers know nothing. Wouldn’t Graves and Rogers demand more accountability from someone else, like a Democrat?
Maybe Hawkins is just as bad. I don’t know anything about him and don’t live in the 9th. However, the duplicity and grandstanding hypocrisy of Graves and Rogers is breathtaking.
Graves and Rogers? I guess they didn’t need to hire a lobbyist.
I may regret this, but I am going to weigh in on the subject of the law suit. I am not an attorney, but I am a mortgage broker and I have seen things like this before. Sen. Rogers claims that he is not responsible for the loan because he no longer owns interest in Tich is not a good reply. If Sen. Rogers signed a note with the bank guaranteeing the note, even if it was as part owner of Tich, then he has guaranteed the note. When he sold his portion of Tich, if he wanted to cover himself, he should have had all of Tich’s holders of liabilities, including Bartow Bank, agree to remove his name from all loans. I doubt he did that.
There are some things I have seen posted that require more research. I have seen a claim that the bank backed out on a promise of converting the note to a 2.5% interest only note. Unless that is part of the original note that was signed by the bank, the bank is under no requirement to change the terms of the note.
As far as the fraudulent conveyance of title goes, it’s somewhat questionable. I haven’t seen all of the details. Usually, a title company will issue title insurance to properly convey ownership and release or transfer of liens. If there was a title company involved, there may be some fault with them. Most title companies also use title insurance to protect owners from this very type of thing. A living trust is a good way to make sure that your property will be kept in your family without other people (not so close family members) coming after it. I don’t know if the motel was put up for collateral or not. If it was, and the bank was not consulted, Rep. Graves may have a problem. If it wasn’t collateral, then Rep. Graves just has a PR problem.
The bank saying Rep. Graves is insolvent because his assets don’t meet his liabilities could be a problem for the bank. There are laws against releasing financial information about your clients, which I think still apply in a law suite. If nothing else, is the bank saying they loaned Tich more money that what the hotel is worth? If so, how smart does that make the bank look? Many hotels and apartments are judged on cash flow and occupancy rates. If those numbers presented to the bank weren’t accurate, that’s another problem.
I’m not taking sides or making judgments. I am just pointing out a few things and my opinion (or someone else’s similar to mine) that should become available eventually. I don’t know all of the details and don’t have a final opinion on this yet.
Thanks. I appreciate your experience and insight. Is it possible some judgement proofing was going on and that Graves moved the land into the trust ahead of the problems? Maybe this would be legal and good business, but a little dishonest for the rest of us?
Your comment about the valuation of the motel is interesting. Graves may have a really bad problem with his due diligence. He may not have known how to realisticly value the property when he bought it, or when he asked for the loan. Perhaps he was in over his head?
Thanks.
The valuation of property is usually done by an appraiser, and usually at the insistence of the lender. The lender has the right to look over the appraisal and “cut” the value if they think the appraisal has been stretched. The due diligence is more required by the lender than the borrowers. The bank makes loans as a matter of everyday business. Rep. Graves and Sen. Rogers do not.
Looking over the complaint, I still haven’t seen where the hotel itself was collateral for the loan. If the property was transferred before legal action was initiated by the bank on calling the note, it becomes more of a lender said borrower said situation. I’m not a lawyer, but the bank it probably within it’s rights to cry foul if it appears Rep Graves it giving away assets and it looks as if he might be about to declare bankruptcy and state he doesn’t have the assets to satisfy the note. It’s a bit of legal posturing, IMO.
You might be misreading what’s there.
By reading both the claims and counter-claims you can get a good picture of what’s going on:
- The LLCs they set up to own the property were technically insolvent, they fell behind on interest payments, the bank held out some carrots to get them to pony up the back interest — and they did — but the big carrot was the refinance agreement that’s in dispute now.
- To refinance in this financial environment, you have to have enough assets to cover the new loan properly. That would take cash from somewhere and the LLCs were technical insolvent. Graves and Rogers didn’t like the terms and claim it’s the bank’s fault that they weren’t able to come to a refinance agreement.
So the bank declared the loan in default and fell back on “personal guarantees” made by Rogers and Graves, which they admit they made. Personal guarantees are like unsecured loans or credit card debt. The bank has to go to court to get permission to seize assets to get their money back.
Meanwhile, Graves “quit claimed” two pieces of property — not the hotel, which is likely owned by the LLCs — from his personal assets to a trust he and his family control. The assets were transferred with no money changing hands and Graves personally receiving no in-kind assets. This is the key to the fraud claim, since he was already having a problem with this loan at that point and was moving the asset to an entity that couldn’t be included in a personal financial dispute… and he did it without receiving anything related to the assets’ value. The bank is moving to invalidate that transfer so that it can seize the property to recover its losses.
The thing about unsecured claims is that there’s no specific piece of property to cover it, so any owned assets could be seized if the court permits (within the confines of state law; for example, in Florida, you can’t seize someone’s primary residence, which is why OJ lives there).
IANAL, of course, but that’s how I read what’s happening here based on the documents that have been filed in court.
As everyone knows, I don’t have a dog in this hunt — I hate them all
— but this situation as documented does look bad for Graves.
I agree with the vast majority of what you said. My only difference is that if the bank said do “X” and we will offer a new note at “terms Y,” and the borrowers did “X,” and the bank did not offer “terms Y,” the bank has made an offer of contract and then broken said contract. If the bank said make your payments because it’s the right thing to do and it what you had agreed to do, that would be a different matter.
That would be correct, but in the filings from both sides, no one is mentioning specific terms, just the generalized “refinance”. My guess is that no one made a specific offer, just the vague offer of “pay back interest and we’ll work out a refi agreement”, since no one is mentioning a specific offer and there’s no attached documentation related to one provided by Graves or Rogers.
Eventually, it seems Rogers and Graves did not like — or couldn’t meet the capital requirements of — the refinance agreement provided by the bank and now want to blame it on the bank for not providing better terms.
At least that’s how I’m reading between the lines. I’ll admit there are some facts not included in the filings, but omissions in court filings are sometimes as important as what’s included.
Look at numbers 9 and 13 under relevant facts in the counter claim. Other than producing the actual e-mails right now, I think it sets up a good agreement that the bank didn’t do ‘Y.”
9 thru 15 are indeed relevant, inasmuch as it likely shows intent (provided they have any of this in writing, so the e-mails would be a good place to start).
However, the refi mentioned looks like nothing more than a 6 month bridge loan until they could get a real refi deal, since after May 2010, there still wouldn’t be enough money to pay off the loan, given that Graves and Rogers were paying the loan interest out of pocket during 2009.
16 is a definite curiosity. There’s more to that line item than meets the eye.
But that all goes to the actual loan and not the transfer, which is the basis of a part of the fraud claim. No other way to spin that one: it was a bad move on Graves’ part to turn a problem into a bigger problem.
You “doubt” he removed he was smart enough to remove his name from all of the loan documents? Really? Let’s wait for the facts, shall we?
Correction: You “doubt” Rogers was smart enough to remove his name from all of the loan documents? Really? Let’s wait for the facts, shall we?
I meant no disrespect to Sen. Rogers. I agree we should see what the facts are before coming to a final conclusion. I am just saying that is a common mistake made by many people. Lenders rarely agree to take someone’s name off of a loan without good reason. A husband and wife may buy a car or a house. They may get divorced and the divorce decree may state that only one party will be responsible from now on, but unless the lender was involved in the case, both are still responsible for the note. The reason is that the lender used the income of both parties to decide on making the loan and they might not have granted to loan just upon the application of one party.
The bank saying Rep. Graves is insolvent because his assets don’t meet his liabilities could be a problem for the bank. There are laws against releasing financial information about your clients, which I think still apply in a law suit
If the financial information is germane to the lawsuit and the lawsuit’s filings are not closed by the judge, it’s an open records situation and not a problem for the bank. They just need to file the claims as part of the suit and then tell the media where to go find them.
The non-payment of the loan is OK to state. Declaring Rep. Graves is insolvent could be a problem. It doesn’t matter if he is, they shouldn’t make that public. It doesn’t help their case and isn’t germane to it. Than again, I am not a lawyer.
Part of the claim is that when Graves was making a personal guarantee on the promissory note he intentionally withheld knowledge that by taking on the guarantee of the note, he was technically insolvent — i.e., assets + income less than liabilities + payables — which makes his guarantee a fraud on the bank. That is most definitely a valid legal claim to make in this case.
By making this claim, they’re probably looking to force Graves into bankruptcy proceedings, which then turns his finances over to a judge to use to pay off the bank. That’s just a guess, but it’s possible that’s where this is heading anyway if they get judgment to seize personal assets including the transferred land in question.
If Rep. Graves withheld (or overstated) information such as income or assets on an application, then the bank has something to talk about. Lying on an application is certainly fraud, but it will be up to the lender to prove that Rep. Graves lied. Most lenders are requiring w-2′s and proof of income before making final loan decisions. They might have wanted to look at the hotel’s bank statements in this case. It’s part of the due diligence required on the lenders part.
For a “personal guarantee” on that much money, the bank wants to see more than W-2′s. Assets, other accounts they control, trusts that might provide them funds, pensions, IRAs, the whole works. That’s why I think the supporting documentation for the original note will be interesting, since it’ll likely list his assets… including the ones that got transferred.
It’s not about the hotel or its income, since those were part of the LLCs that were created. That part is likely already taken over by the bank. But assets aren’t worth what they used to be, so the bank wants the rest via the “personal guarantees” of Rogers and Graves.
Wow. You two put the media to complete shame. Thanks for taking the time to go over all this and explain it. I really appreciate you guys sorting it all out.
Some of what we both wrote is guesswork and opinion based on what we read and our own understanding of this type of situation… something the average reporter isn’t going to have experience with, so they can only report it, but not really do a good job interpreting or explaining it.
Don’t blame it on the media: they reported the story for us to discuss in the first place.
The other story GeorgiaConservative linked to about the motel in question is also interesting, because it described the new owner of the motel. How exactly did the interest in the motel change hands without the bank getting involved? What money changed hands and if the loans weren’t paid off, where did the money go?
It may be guesswork, but I’ve learned a lot. Your questions about the transfer of title and the resolution of the mortgage in question are key to this all.
I think there is another shoe, or mortgage, to fall next week. If Graves has lied about any of this, he’s done.
It’s key only to why there’s a balance owed at all, but the part where Graves transferred personal assets to another entity under his control in order to hide them is the bigger fraud here.
If they used the 2 million plus to buy the property, and the have since sold they property, why hasn’t the 2 million plus been paid back? Perhaps they are holding a private mortgage on the property. There are still many unasked and unanswered questions.
BTW, is Hawkins wife his first or second? If second, what happened to the first?
All of the Court documents:
http://www.hometownheadlines.com/documents/10CV55929_GordonCounty.pdf
Atticus
Since you know so much about Hawkins and Graves, how about answering the above question. Also, dirty politics would be Graves bringing to life Hawkins sordid past, if my assumption is correct.
I know my girl friends care more about commitment in relationships than financial deals.
Waiting…
I think we all know what happens when you assume…
I know next to nothing about Hawkins. In fact, I am not in the district and I have not seen any of the media for the race other than what is on this site. I do not care for pious, self-righteous frauds, nor for politicians who have a carefully cultivated “public face” that is diametrically opposed to their “private face”. Graves may fall into that category or when all the facts of the lawsuit come out he may be nothing more than the victim of shady Bank practices. As for Hawkins, if he touts family values and has carried water for the religious right or if he has criticized others for their moral shortcomings while at the same time living a personal life that does not “walk the walk” then he would be a fraud too.
Good link, but it’s all the court documents, SO FAR. Reading over them, if Rep. Graves and Sen. Rogers can produce the e-mails where the bank promised it would redo the note at better terms and they complied and they bank did not, this could be an easy win for Rep. Graves and Sen. Rogers. Telling the bank to produce the note is a good idea if the loan has been sold several times. In this case, I think it’s a delaying tactic, or a way not to admit that the payments were due. There are still many more questions than answers in this case. After deposition and discovery, we should have a better understanding. I predict a year to a year and a year and a half before that happens.
WHY IS EVERYONE AVOIDING MY QUESTION? MAYBE I NEED TO DO MY OWN SNOOPING. FIRST PLACE TO START WILL BE IN HALL COUNTY. MAYBE IT IS IN THE WATER THERE UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE MY ASSUMPTION WRONG??????
We’re ignoring your question, because it’s a stupid one. Better that you didn’t know, huh?
Willow,
I don’t care if Sharon is wife number 1 or wife number 17. As far as I can tell, she’s a good woman. Go do your own research..
I do know and I do care if he was a lobbyist and married and then suddenly divorced and marries a lobbyist. NO ASSUMPTION HERE.
Then if that’s what you “care” about, you’re just a shallow troll who is unworthy of attention from anyone else here.
I love the fact that I am making you angry…
Go ahead “Make my day”
That you think anything you write is making me “angry” is just further indication of your general cluelessness. You’re the one trying to make a shallow point about a candidate you don’t like and I’m calling you on how shallow you appear to be based on the points you seem to “care” about. That’s not “anger” you’re reading. It’s disdain.
“…unworthy of attention…”
Byte you had it right the 1st time.
Shallow?? Explain how my point or question is shallow.
Or better yet, answer my question instead of attacking me. Isn’t that what you claim Graves Diggers are doing?
Do you need me to repeat the question??
Yeah, bowers, you’re right, my bad to respond. Why engage a shallow troll? Pushing the “ignore” button.
YEAH, you responded
Chip Rogers and Tom Graves were involved in a shady business deal? I don’t believe it. Next thing you know, someone will accuse them of being Acorn Lobbyists.
They have great hair, they sound so believable, and they know how to call a massive tax increase a tax cut. Perfect, electable, Republicans if you ask me.
Kind of like Obama! I keep finding so many parallels of the two. Except the great hair. And I think Obama has more dress shirts compared the one lucky blue shirt Graves has
Doug Grammer – Thank you for the very necessary qualifiers and tidbits of knowledge you’ve provided to help put some of this brew in perspective
Once again, however, this “jenny” person has further distilled this putrid brew ALMOST down to its rotting origin.
In spite of the orgasmic thrill enjoyed by some when bantering about the spectacles of political influence, fraud, monetary malfeasance, and the public disgrace of others….including the MIS-definition & MIS-application of those to whom they wish to afford either respect or disdain – this story strikes me just a bit differently, and so I must bypass the temptation of those thrills & ask the rhetorical questions:
Where did the really 2.25M come from anyway? Do Mr. Graves & Mr. Rogers really know? If they don’t know, why don’t they know? If they do know, why don’t they champion the audit & abolition of its source and help save us all from the enslavement they claim to be fighting when they constantly invoke the quotes of the Founders?
That’s: Where did the 2.25M really come from anyway?
Can a Graves supporter tell me how they can support a guy that is so willing to be so loose with the truth? Are you not questioning everything he’s been telling you all along now? And to people who say this is gutter politics, I say this: POLITICS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAVE FRAUDULENT TRANSFER OF PROPERTY AND HIS INSOLVENCY.
the only thing politics had to do with it is that WSB cared to make a story about it because he is a public figure. If it were me the Bank were suing no one would have heard about it.
And also this: If John Linder made a call praising Graves Debbie0040 would probably be singing his praises as a great conservative leader for the FairTax and so would the rest of the GraveDiggers. But he didnt, all because he called Tom to ask him about why he is mentioning him in his stump speech and Tom OBVIOUSLY answered with something that urged Linder to get involved. What do you all think he said to Linder? Apparently you all are so much smarter than all the 7th district voters that keep electing him
Don’t have to do research. Your answers confirmed what I thought. Why do you guys blast Casey and so willingly forgive Lee??
Are you inferring something about Lee without any knowledge?
Dude, your psycho…
who said I was a dude??
Um, one n done-
I think you may be making a lot of presuppositions about candidate supporting populaces. Here’s how it works. You look at a picture of all potential candidates for a given office. You decide which one looks more like “your” guy. Then you go hear them all speak and decide which one sounds more like “your” guy. After those two hurdles, you look at campaign coffers and decide which is mostly likely to win making “your” guy even more appealing (though in some instances by equally brain dead people, having no money is actually a plus). After these foundational decisions have been made, you chose your candidate and cling to and defend him like a McDingleBerry through “thick” and “thin.” (Sorry if I made you lose your appetite with that analogy. Politics gets uncomfortably constipated with large unwieldy masses of undesirable candidates).
So facts have no place here. Now, accusations on the other hand, are like throwing in a fresh new tennis ball to volley across the court with enthusiastic vigor keeping the fans cheering and the ticket sales going.
So your own value system shouldn’t come into place when choosing “your” guy? I cannot vote in this race but the candidate who gets my support isn’t so hard and fast with the truth as Graves seems to be…because that leads me to wonder “what else is he stretching the truth on”? And I don’t want a guy in charge of my money that can’t even manage his own money…to the tune of $2.25 million. Luckily I don’t have that much money of my own for him to mismanage
Talk about shattering illusions…..
McDingledoughnuts aside jenny, if the facts have no place “here” – where do you suggest one go to find the place where facts rule?
For that matter, where does a citizen/human/voter/American without much interest in “accusations”, who clings to and defends TRUTH through thick and thin, go to find their candidate after fulfilling your instructions for “how it works”?
Jenny,
You’re not being fair to one n done. You’ve apparently had your own value system shattered and have become a cynical, jaded activist that is typical of the riff-raff that posts on PeachPundit.
Let the young lad/lass continue to live in Fairyland…it’s all that is left of childhood innocence after finding out there is no Santy Claus or Easter Bunny.
@Lawful Money
LOL! Well, I wasn’t presenting anything worth pontificating over. I was just offering shallow sarcastic mumblings. But to be serious:
The important thing is to hold these guys responsible on their legislative votes. HB 1055 for instance, is really damning, not to mention HB 982. At the end of the day, the person in office is only as relevant to liberty as his constituents force him to be. Most of these bozos ought to be embarrassed to show their face at church much less their local hardware store or diner–but that would be if we were doing our real job.
Tom Graves has no business being a representative of the people for any elected office because he has perjured himself regarding his oath of office to uphold the federal Constitution and the state Constitution. He should be put on trial for impeachment by the House and removed by the Senate for the illegal legislative manipulations in HB 1055. But to be consistent, the House would have to impeach a lot more than 2/3rds their number, and the Senate would have to remove from office the same.
I think there defense on this rings hollow. I certainly do not appreciate a sanctimonious politician preaching personal responsibility only to find out that he is scheming and dodging taking responsibility for his bad debt.
Actions like that brought down the Republicans in Washington and we don’t need to be sending more of the same to continue the same old problems as ususal.
If this is the new wave of leadership that Freedomworks and the Tea Parties are going to be pushing, than no thanks.
HEY, it seems like to me the politicians that are getting thrown out and resigning from Washington are the ones that can’t keep their pants up, AKA Hawkins.
Respectfully GOPwits, I think you will find that the “new wave of leadership” is the very thing that itself created (NON)Freedomworks and the counterfeit “Tea Parties”.
I’m speaking of the presumed “leadership” of these august pirate imitations, mind you, NOT the rank and file – who have been rather genuine in my experience. Although some of them may have not yet fully awakened to the subterfuge of Beck, Gingrich, Hannity, Romney, the Huckster, or O’Reilly yet – they are over their slumber & will hopefully not fall for the seductive escort back to the plantation……
Therefore, despite some notable exceptions like Rand Paul who is likely working to re-engineer the real Tea Party back to its modern day origin in December 2007 during his father’s Presidential campaign, it should be no surprise they are infiltrated and top heavy with the same recycled hacks who have delivered the depression & moral bankruptcy we suffer with today.
They are one and the same.
Mike Huckabee–I just started puking, and I haven’t even eaten yet. Never underestimate the amount of Messianic Statism that can be sold to Christian Evangelicals when properly packaged.
kind of like Ralph Reed
The Linder robo call was an attempt to deceive voters and it is backfiring big time. It greatly harmed Linder’s crediblity. Great conservatives activists all over the ninth district are emailing friends asking them to vote for Tom. Bettye Chambers is very well respected in Hall County and statewide and she was the latest to email friends.
FreedomWorks PAC and tea party activists endorsed and supported Rand Paul, they also worked to oust RINO Bob Bennett and other RINOs.
Tea party win embarrasses GOP establishment
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_primary_day_after
Tea Party Activists Defend Rand Paul Amid Civil Rights Controversy
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/21/tea-party-activists-defend-rand-paul-amid-civil-rights-controversy/
Lee Hawkins bragged about attending “attending Vice President Biden and Gov. Purdue’s announcement of public/private stimulus development for northeast Georgia in Dawson County.” on his Twitter account. We want the type of elected official that we can count on to stand up to both the liberals and GOP leadership if they start going down the same path that they did uner W. Hawkins is not that person and Tom is.
How dare he help get jobs into his district!! Has he no shame!
He was helping promote attending an event that was hyping the Stimulus Money and what it was spent. Didn’t seem to care that the tax payers had been raped with that Stimulus Bill and that he should not help that bill get PR..
Funny, I don’t feel raped. And I pay a lot of taxes.
Oh, right, because the stimulus worked and business got back to normal faster than expected after a complete meltdown of the financial markets.
Yeah, it’s a terrible thing to promote that.
But, hey, “keep government hands off my medicare”, right?
@Debbie-
The last paragraph was rather conclusively damning for Hawkins.
FRAUD…is that bad? Ya, we should definitely elect him to manage tax dollars…if he has more money to manage he’ll do it better? If you can still support Tom than you spit in the face of ethical behavior
There are a lot of folks out here who would rather ignore the obvious.
You know, you Hawkins people beating a dead horse yelling fraud in regard to Tom. Most voters are intelligent enought to know those are just filings or pleadings in a court action. Both sides go over board with accusations.. Quit insulting the intelligence of voters. Most voters look at the fact Senate Majority leader Chip Rogers was part of this lawsuit as well and owuld not be part of a shady deal. They also know Graves well enough to know he was not part of a shady deal either. The more you Hawkins people make a big deal of this, the more voters will be disgusted of the dirty campaigning that reminds voters of the bunch of turkeys in charge in D.C.
Voters in the 9th strongly opposed the Stimulus Bill. The fact Hawkins attended an event whose purpose was to promote the stimulus bill does not sit well with voters in the 9th. Hawkins even bragged about attending the event with Gov. Perdue and VP Biden on his Twitter account. Voters will pay much more attention to that…
You know, Debbie, you are trying to ignore inconvenient facts. Do check out the pleadings and see what Graves admits before claiming it’s just pleadings and not reality. You understand that court pleadings have to have a basis in fact, not just opinion like blogs, right?
And I’ll bet you have absolutely no idea what “voters in the 9th” — other than your little group formed and fomented with anger — actually think. Especially those voters whose jobs were created with that little bit of public/private stimulus.
As I’ve said, I have no dog in this hunt, but you are a die-hard supporter of Graves — a man who tried to fraudulently hide assets to keep from losing them to the bank because of his terrible business acumen — so your words trying to slam Hawkins are less than honest.
just like the voters were going to see through all of those attacks on Ralph Reed. Right debbie?
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