Online Poll For 7th Congressional District Open Thread.

An online poll of announced and potential candidates has popped up at the website of the Barrow Journal. It seems to me the list of names in the poll comes from some of those early national stories so it shows Shafer and MacGinnitie who of course are not running. Nevertheless the poll is fun to look at on a Friday afternoon.

Consider this an open thread.

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with Chuck Efstration who says he did not send out an email asking people to vote in this poll.


  1. John Konop says:

    This needs a real investigation! I would hope since he apologized already for this NO EXCUSE criminal behavior and paid a settlement, that the NFL would come down on him like a ton of bricks even while being investigated!

    AJC…..Milledegeville Police said Friday that Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger is a suspect in the sexual assault of a Georgia College & State University student.

    Roethlisberger and his 20-year-old accuser visited “multiple establishments” together late Thursday night before the alleged attack, said Milledgeville Police Deputy Chief Richard Malone during a press conference early Friday evening……


    …..He’s been accused of sexual assault before.
    Last year, a woman claimed she was raped by the quarterback in 2008 in a Lake Tahoe, Nev. hotel room. Although no criminal charges were filed, the woman, Andrea McNulty, filed a civil suit against Roethlisberger to compel him to make a public admission and give her an apology and $100,000…..…..

        • GOPGeorgia says:


          This is exactly what I have been talking about. You read something the wrong way and have pulled your pitchfork out on Big Ben.

          He has not apologized for anything and denies the allegation. He could have kept his name out of the press by paying a bribe to a VIP hostess girl on Lake Tahoe. She wanted money to go to a charity, but the book deal and talk shows would pay her more. Let there be an investigation. There couldn’t be 2 women out to get a payday from an NFL quarterback, could there?

            • John Konop says:


              You think Ben agreed to admit to rape to avoid the cost of a lawsuit? In his income the cost would be a rounding error! And your evidence is an opinion article in the sports page. WOW! Do you have daughter?

              Would you admit to a rape you did not do?

              • GOPGeorgia says:


                He didn’t admit to the rape! He didn’t pay her (or anyone else) any money!

                YOU SAID: “he not only had to settle but he admitted his crime.”


                “On July 17, 2009, a civil suit was filed in Washoe County, Nevada District Court accusing Roethlisberger of sexually assaulting Andrea McNulty, 31, in June 2008 in his hotel room while he was in Lake Tahoe for a celebrity golf tournament.[87] Roethlisberger is one of nine defendants listed in the docket report. McNulty did not file a criminal complaint and no physical evidence was collected. Roethlisberger’s attorney denied the claim.”

       broke the story. It was used a s source in several articles and videos I read and watched on the subject. Here is a video from Fox with them as a source.


                I can’t say for a fact that he is innocent or guilty, I wasn’t in the room. I will presume innocence until proven guilty. I can say for a fact that he hasn’t admitted to a crime that you said he did. I can also say for a fact that he didn’t pay her.

                Admit it John, you got you facts wrong.

                • Republican Lady says:

                  I thought two different women from two different parts of the USA accused him of rape. Did I get that wrong?

                    • John Konop says:


                      Very good article! READ ABOUT YOUR HERO. He sound like a dirt bag!

                      …. I think that guy’s done. Again, let’s take the best-case scenario. I’m not saying Roethlisberger is a rapist. I just know that, at some level, he suffers from the same malady that affected Garland’s other clients: a star ballplayer’s sense of entitlement.

                      To this point, the most damning testimony to Roethlisberger’s image has come from Amber Hanley, a 21-year-old student at Georgia College and State University in Milledgeville, Ga. She had the privilege of meeting him in the VIP area of Capital City, a local club, last Thursday night.

                      From the AP: “She said she asked the quarterback to take a photo with her friend, who was a fan, but he seemed disappointed that’s all she wanted. Hanley said she rolled her eyes, and Roethlisberger called her an expletive and walked away. Later, Roethlisberger was aggressively hitting on another girl, Hanley said.”

                      Doesn’t take much to imagine what that expletive was. The story has a ring of truth, no?

                      Later still, a 20-year-old sophomore claimed she was assaulted by Roethlisberger, who had been to at least one other bar that night, in a bathroom at the club.

                      Again, as it’s not my job to indict the guy, I’ll assume the very best. So here’s a guy who has been a full-blown celebrity for at least five years. The period of his fame coincides with the age of cell-phone cameras and the like.

                      But it seems to serve no warning. In fact, by now you may be acquainted with the candid shot of Roethlisberger with a T-shirt that reads: “DRINK LIKE A CHAMPION.” The hottie next to him is smiling, but Big Ben can barely open his eyes. His is the unmistakable look of a slob.

                      Two Super Bowl rings. A $102 million contract. And he’s still doing shots with college kids. Way to go, champ. …..


                    • GOPGeorgia says:


                      He is in the business world, but you don’t get to call the shots for him. You stated he admitted to committing a crime. I have shown you three different sources that state that he has not admitted to a crime.


                      He’s not my hero, I don’t care that much for the Steelers, you still haven’t learned your lesson in assuming you know what I think or feel. My point is not that I am pro big Ben, but that you are wrong to assume some is guilty just because they are accused! That is not the county we live in; that’s Mother Russia!

                      The man may be guilty or he may not. I don’t know but neither do you. Let the wheels of justice turn and put down your pitchfork.

                      I could tell you a story of someone I have heard of who loves to judge most people guilty of anything at the slightest whisper of a rumor. He demands that the subject of a rumor be fired, or be banned from running for office. The appearance of impropriety is much to harsh for him to bare. The story has a ring of truth, no?

              • drjay says:

                ben has not admitted to anything, that lawsuit is still working it’s way through the courts–i believe in october his lawyer filed a motion to dismiss, not sure if it has been ruled on yet…i have yet to form an opinion about the milledgeville situation until all the facts are in–which should be by friday or early next week at the latest…

  2. ByteMe says:

    Since it’s an open thread….

    I read last night that the CBO is saying the budget proposed by the Obama Administration will have deficits of $1T per year for the next 10 years.

    I’m moving closer to Indy’s camp — I’m pissed with all of them as well — but I’m not ready to jump off a cliff yet.

    The issue as defined by the CBO is that tax revenues have been falling for a long time, but spending (especially with two ongoing wars/nation building) is rising. BTW, TARP hasn’t been quite the expensive boondoggle most people feared, something like the cost of 2 years in Iraq over the past two years. Combine Iraq, TARP, Afghanistan, big toys for the Pentagon, increased Medicaid/unemployment costs, infrastructure issues, high unemployment stretching for another 6 or so years… it’s not one thing (and certainly not your favorite pet complaint), but the combination of all of them.

    Anyway, I don’t think any of the DC politicians have the guts to go along, but…. if the Feds decide to cut the typical places some people claim they want to cut — DofEd, DofT, and all the other Dof’s — they still can’t close the gap AND it’ll push the load onto the states (about half of Georgia’s DofEd budget comes from the Feds and do you really think they will force the layoff of half the teachers?), so taxes will rise at the state level. No one is being realistic.

    Unemployment benefits (at the state level) are being extended to cover the millions without jobs and that money is coming from the Fed, since most states are tapped out on their unemployment benefits fund. Medicaid enrollment is increasing, because if you don’t have a job, you qualify for poor and can receive medical assistance from the state (also partially paid by the Feds).

    And we’re not even to the part where Social Security and Medicare costs are going to increase; that’s not part of the problem yet. HCR is only being scored by the CBO as adding $100B to the problem, the rest is what we have today, and not having HCR means the number is actually bigger as we get into the second decade and Medicare costs swamp everything else.

    In other words: you can cut, but the states will have to pick up the costs in many cases and that means the states will have to raise taxes.

    Everyone has their favorite pet theory on what to do, but nothing is getting done, because there’s no consensus and certainly no getting to consensus with two parties dug in on their own fake agendas that get in the way of getting the 800 lb. gorilla back in its cage.

    We have a declining set of choices, none of them good ones. All of the choices have negative consequences that will last years. Not choosing will have a negative consequence that will last years.

    So far the politicians — as the elected representatives of we the people — are sticking with “not choosing”. None of the parties have a good answer — there isn’t one — nor do they want to tie themselves to one of the not-good choices.

    Watch what’s happening now with Greece and soon with the UK. That’s our future, regardless of who is in charge. It won’t happen tomorrow or the next day. But it’s probably about 10 years out and will affect us for 8-10 years if we don’t suck it up sooner and pick one of the declining set of not-good choices and support the politicians willing to make and live with that selection.

    • Icarus says:

      Very encouraging to read this ByteMe. Not the material (subject matter and consequences), of course, but recognition of the problem from someone who may be described as part of the “lucid left”. Recognizing there really is a problem is the first way to moving toward a solution.

      Most of the people on “my” side of the aisle who recognize the problem are either usually such alarmists that they’re more concerned about scaring the hell out of people (sorry Indy) or are total hucksters trying to sell newsletters based on their faulty solutions – like moving to the gold standard.

      I flew out west this weekend, and read most of Joe Scarborough’s new book “The Last Best Hope”. He’s the host of MSNBC’s morning program, and served as a member of Congress’s “Class of ’94” when Republicans took control with the Contract with America.

      However, he was among the first to call B.S. on Republican Hypocricy with his book “Rome Wasn’t Burnt In A Day” in 2004, well before most of the scandals which burned us so badly in 2006 and 2008 came to light.

      In his book, he urges concervatives to move past blind ideology and back to pragmatic, common sense solutions. For the reasons you mentioned above and more, this must be done.

      I look forward to more of this discussion, and will try to do an occasional thread on it if the others here want. Since it’s off-mission (i.e., not GA politics specific), any threads would be limited, probably along the lines of when we used to do “Fair Tax Friday” open threads.

      But, the first step is to admit we have a problem. And currently, our government has promised to spend more than we have, or will have. This is unsustainable, and must stop.

      • IndyInjun says:

        Since it’s off-mission (i.e., not GA politics specific)……

        In most cases there is a Georgia aspect, as when there are Friday Bank closures. Georgia banks, when closed by the FDIC with assets sold to a successor bank, are revealing overstated assets on the magnitude of the 3 closed yesterday, 25 to 37%. My recollecti0n is one Georgia bank made for a 40% asset write down.

        Almost every aspect of this mess has a Georgia component, particularly since Georgia led the nation in mortgage fraud for much of the 2000’s decade.

        • Icarus says:

          As we’ve discussed before Indy, you can make anything “about” Georgia politics. Even Toby Keith lyrics.

          But the actions to fix the above are federal political issues, and will not be decided in the Georgia legislature or by the Macon City Council.

          I realize and respect that you have one issue. It is not one, however, of “Georgia politics”.

          You’re welcome to continue to comment whatever you want on open threads, such as this one. We will not bog down the others with this.

          • IndyInjun says:

            you have one issue. It is not one, however, of “Georgia politics”.

            Yes, Massuh, whatever you say massah.

            The Georgia legislature seems to be up to its netherparts from multiple alligators from this “one issue.”

            You be de boss.

            I participate in blogs that are far better than this one that take an nonpartisan POV and dissect the continuing saga that is this financial mess very often from the standpoint of the effects on the states, including Georgia, among other things.

            Those blogs were, and continue to be, on the front edge of the stories on Fox,specifically Glenn Beck, by a matter of weeks. We were months ahead, but Beck’s staff has learned that we are not rank amateurs.

            I realize that PP is a one-dimensional place with tin pot dictators.

            I don’t salute those.

            • Icarus says:

              Then please go to those blogs. The fact that our blog doesn’t neatly fit your one issue mission isn’t our problem, it’s yours.

              Those of us that moderate this, with a very light hand I might add, still have to try to keep the topics to why people come here to read.

              If it’s not what you want, PLEASE go elsewhere.

              • IndyInjun says:

                What is this “one issue?”

                Is it the FairTax?

                Is it the variation in GOP GA delegation and stated party principles?

                Is it Richardson’s GREAT?

                Richardson’s corruption?

                The Speaker Election?

                The unfunded state healthcare liability?

                Deals’s getting listed as corrupt?

                Linder, FairTax book author versus Linder, FT bill author?

                Is it Karen Handel on the radio?

                Is it state sales and property taxation?

                Is it the $billions in budget shortfalls?

                Is it Ralph Reed pimping out Baptists. (yeah it didn’t happen in GA, but went to the matter of ‘trust.’)

                Is it Isakson’s TARP vote? His 401k ‘reform?’

                Is it Georgia banks topping the fraud list?

                Is it SB31?

                Is it the “Thread of Dreams?”

                How are all of these things my “single issue?”

                • Mozart says:

                  If I may interject with an observation here, Indy: Icarus likely means your “one issue” to be that you always b—- and moan about what is wrong about a wide array of Republicans and never curse the darkness of the Democrats.

                  • IndyInjun says:

                    Nonsense. I complained about Barrow’s vote on Porkulus and Icky gave me hell for flipping on JB.

                    I have posted that the Dems are irrelevant because they are largely communists, excepting the Blue Dogs.

                    The Blue Dogs are the only ones I have had positive comments against.

                    I am indifferent on health care because I see the deal sending the Dems to extinction, or nearly so.

                    I have supported Sonny, Cagle, Barrow, and Broun since coming to PP, Barroe only because Max Burns had the same lousy record on GOP principles as Saxby, Johnny, et al.

                    It neither for singularity of issues or lack of criticism for Dems or being totally negative about GOP candidates.

                    It is ALL about party principles and whether officials have the honor and integrity to uphold them. Most of the folks Icky supports don’t, but rather than hold them accountable, he strikes out at me.

          • Bill Greene says:

            Gee, I’m so surprised that Charlicarus thinks Indy is some “one issue” pony.

            Well, I guess he’s right – if the “one issue” is how some people are not only willingly blind to the disaster that our legislators – both state and federal – are driving us into, but are actually leading others over that cliff as well… all the while dismissing folks like Indy by using their, um, sarcastic, um… “wit”. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

    • IndyInjun says:

      Not 10 years, closer to 2.

      Read Buchanan’s last column on the import of the numbers.

      The numbers are going to crush those who deny the severity of the debt problem.

      Don’t frame it whether ‘Indy’ was right or wrong. That will cause you to be blindsided or continue to be blindsided on some silly like/dislike.

      Our common survival depends on as many as possible looking at the math, realizing the truth and ACTING PDQ.

      Alas, per my posting below, we look to be heading in the opposite direction.

  3. B Balz says:


    If we are going to survive as a Nation we had better start action NOW. I returned from an annual advocacy trip to WDC last week struck by the common denominator in each Congressional and Senate office I visited.

    Staffers and representatives alike are aware of the gravitas for our issues. The institutionalized mentality of a Dem or GOP rep is only broken when enough people STOP TYPING and get MOVING.

    Become involved before it is too late. Because if we see a Grecian style protest here, it will be GAME OVER.

    Indy’s numbers do not lie.

    • ByteMe says:

      If we are going to survive as a Nation

      Here’s where we part company. I don’t see it as a “survival” thing. America will survive and live on because the “American Promise” will survive and live on. Debt doesn’t change that promise, it just changes our ability to be the world’s economic and security leader.

      Americans always step up when the time is right to step up and the leaders ask us to. Right now, we don’t have enough leaders with enough guts to ask us. We have a few, but they are drowned out in the he-said/she-said cable yelling matches provided for entertainment to the ignorant masses who then get to think they know what’s going on without actually knowing what’s going on.

      When the problem gets bad enough, leaders will emerge. By then, they will need to lead us through one of the few remaining not-good choices. Until then, …

      • B Balz says:

        Perhaps a poorly chosen word, survive. How about successfully continue to thrive?

        The numbers Indy uses…

        Either way, results don’t come from blogging…

    • IndyInjun says:

      As noted, they are not, nor have they ever been “Indy’s” numbers.

      They are, alas, OUR numbers and they spell out doom.

      If we don’t come together and quickly now, we are doomed, not by ‘anybody’s’ numbers, but the sheer magnitude of the debt.

      If we were anywhere near realization of the reality of the numbers, where are the GOP senators standing behind Jim Bunning as Unemployment Compensation becomes a PERMANENT ENTITLEMENT for 10 million Americans and growing.

      When the max benefit in Georgia is $320 (somebody who knows said this I did not look it up) or $8, it is endless, and it is effortless, why on earth would somebody take a $10 an hour job?

      America is great. America remains bountiful. America is a fount of innovation. America has unlimited ability to reclaim the future.

      America is hurtling toward the abyss and won’t make it, if we don’t act NOW.

      • GOPGeorgia says:

        “America is hurtling toward the abyss and won’t make it, if we don’t act NOW.”

        chug-a-chuga, chuga-a-chuga, chug-a-chuga, chuga-a-chuga, choo choo! Doom train kept a rollin all night long, doom train kept rollin a rolling all night long…(to the tune of train train by blackfoot)

  4. IndyInjun says:

    In the saga of America’s collapse, this week may have sealed her/our fate, for in Georgia and DC it was made manifestly clear that there is absolutely no leadership and we are a 50 state Titanic.

    In Georgia, the Board of Regents announced draconian cuts.Immediately Georgia legislators leapt to the fore to proclaim the cuts won’t happen, without explaining where they are going to get the money. The legislature is planning tax increases, which means that big government will be rescued on the backs of the taxpayers.

    Here we are in the early innings of a Time of Reckoning and the Georgia General Assembly is clearly not up to the task of seeing us through.

    In Washington, Senator Bunning had the audacity to stand in the way of a spending bill that extends and funds unemployment benefits. Unemployment compensation has already been extended to 99 weeks and certainly looks on its way to being permanent. Bunnings fellow “republicans” fell all over themselves to denounce Bunning.

    The critical debate over whether the USA and Georgia would take the bitter medicine to reverse the tide of socialism and ravenous government to end the disastrous, unsustainable debt expansion is now settled, now, eight months before the election.

    Politics at both levels is now irrelevant. The debt monster will be fed until every middle class American is crushed.

    Who is governor is irrelevant when the real numbers are considered.

    Who is POTUS is irrelevant when the real numbers are considered.

    Politics is sound and fury, smoke and mirrors, lies and manipulation.

    It is going to end.


    Pat Buchanan says it very well here….Pitching For America

    …the behavior of senators suggests that neither party appreciates the depth of the crisis we are in or the pain that will be required to get us out….And when one stares at some of those budget numbers, the priorities of the Obama administration seem almost surreal.

    The politicians are in la-la land. The math can no longer be overcome.

  5. John Konop says:

    I have an interesting solution:

    Why not put a debt fee on all goods from China with a strict contract that the money is used to pay off our debt with them. This would lower our debt, which would increase liquidity for the private sector for investment creating jobs and increase domestic production and investment once again creating more jobs.

      • John Konop says:


        I am not sure they would if the money went directly back to them. This is why it is an interesting concept, because of the all the money we owe them.

        • ByteMe says:

          They’re owed the money either way, but if we add tariffs that have the effect of slowing the rate of imports from them… they’ll rightly complain.

          • btpull says:

            Not just complain they could retaliate. Since China has $2.4T of foreign currency reserves (not sure how much is in US Dollars, but I assume it must be a good portion) they could simply exchange US Dollars for EURO’s or other currencies.

            This would drive-up down the value of the dollar, increase interest rates, and energy costs (oil is trading in USD). In other words if we are not nice to the Chinese they can wreck-havoc on our economy. If you think the housing market is bad now, just imagine what it would be like with a double digit prime rate.

            • John Konop says:

              The problem in the lending business is when you have a customer who cannot pay the bill. You would be right if we kept the money, but in this proposal China would get extra money for their imports. And at the same time they would de-leverage their liability with us. And China has made it clear they are not happy about the leverage position with us. And if the dollar gets stronger it also helps China since they own so much of our currency. This is a win/win idea!

              • IndyInjun says:

                During the last 5 years China has gone deeply into Africa and South America, securing resources and commodities under long term contracts.

                China is said to have control of 97% of the rare earth minerals which are needed in many new technologies.

                While the USA was engaged in Iraq, these strategic thinkers have been quite busy.

              • btpull says:

                So your basically proposing a tax on the America consumer to pay down the debt. I’d like to have an increase in exports to China to balance out the trade deficit. Then trade Yuan for US treasury debt by exempting profits used to purchase our debt from China from income taxes.

                • John Konop says:


                  China does not have intellectual property laws so anything we come up with they steal it. Also the workers have limited legal rights if it all so they make less than 2 bucks an hour. They also manipulate their currency making American products difficult to sell I could go on and on……

                  The reality is we owe China a ton of money. And the more we buy from them further will fall behind. If we do not start paying our bills and producing at least as much as we consume the economy will keep falling backwards!

                  I find it bizarre how you would call PAYING your bills a tax! The Cheney/Bush debt does not matter GOP philosophy is how we gat into this mess. A tax break without the proper spending cuts is not conservative it is irresponsible!

                  We have to many on both sides that want a free lunch. Our country is buying cheap products from China while bowering the money from them. Why do you think this is sustainable?

                  • btpull says:

                    John Konop,

                    I do NOT think it is sustainable at all. What worries me is their huge foreign currency reserves and their huge holdings of our debt. They can, and probably will, use one or both of them against us when they feel it is in their interest.

                    Sure currently it is a mutually beneficial balancing act. We buy their goods; they finance our entitlement programs, our mortgage industry (via Fannie’s and Freddie’s agency debt), student loans (Sallie Mae’s agency debt), etc.

                    This has been a politically convenient way for the Congress and the President to expand Federal expenditures without raising taxes substantially for the last 3 decades. Regardless what the parties want us to believe every President from Reagan on has left office with a higher level of Federal debt.

                    I agree your idea has merits. It does not address their foreign currency reserves accumulated via the trade imbalance, however. By increasing exports and using their currency to buy our debt we would be able to reduce both of their economic weapons.

                    At some point their domestic consumption will grow to the point where they won’t be reliant on our market. At that time who knows how they will uses our debt and our currency to their advantage both politically and economically; I am current it won’t be for our betterment.

                    • John Konop says:


                      I agree that this only helps internal consumption not experts with China. But I do not think we can win a trade game with country that has no intellectual property rights……until they shift from socialism.

                      We must focus on trade with Western style economies having the same issues. But, we would see a major increase short term on just an increase of domestic products and investment in new domestic production.

                      ….It does not address their foreign currency reserves accumulated via the trade imbalance, however. By increasing exports and using their currency to buy our debt we would be able to reduce both of their economic weapons……

                • IndyInjun says:

                  Well, given that the Chinese have been practicing mercantilism via currency manipulation, which accomplishes the same thing as a tariff, I am not opposed to a tariff.

                  Yeah, yeah I heard all of the malarkey about tariffs causing Great Depression I, but something akin to a tariff has to be devised to counter Chinese manipulation.

                  The broader issue is wage parity with India and China. I, for one, do not believe the USA as we know it can exist on 50 cents an hour. We were supposed to be the service provider for the world but our service providers served up massive loads of toxic assets.

                  So much for that.

                  • ByteMe says:

                    Wages are rising in both India and China as their respective middle classes start engaging in consumerism. That’s the real promise of international trade: that we help create an engaged middle class in other countries.

                    I think what John is aiming for is a way to pay down our debt while encouraging more industrial production at home. And it makes sense except for that pesky WTO that we helped create and encouraged China to join.

                    • John Konop says:


                      The WTO is a joke and nothing is really enforced. Second China has a lot at stake if we cannot pay them back and our currency tanks. Thirdly it is not even arguable that we cannot keep consuming at this rate. Finally I have been on both sides on deals like this and at the end with no compromise everyone will go down. Ironically a similar term we use in business is a Chinese torture contract. The concept being that deal and language is based on avoiding mutual destruction.

                • Republican Lady says:

                  If we don’t come up with sustainable jobs for the unemployed and underemployed, there won’t be enough people to pay any meaningful taxes.

            • Mozart says:

              If they “retaliated”, it would be for a pretty short time. Their factories rely on our purchases. They drive the valuation of the dollar down by too much, too quickly, and we will stop buying in the volumes we buy now.

              That slashing of demand from the US will affect their factories and cause them to slow and shut down. Then the Chinese will be in quite the pickle of their own undoing.

              • John Konop says:


                I agree. And that is why if we paid back our debt per transaction they would like it better than the current model which is a race to the bottom for both countries. We cannot keep consuming at this rate with the lack of production and ever pay China back. And if we do not do something the Chinese will be holding useless currency.

              • btpull says:

                Keep in mind the Chinese population is 3 times as large as ours. They only need 1/3 of their population to be at the our consumption level to replace our market altogether. This economic détente will work in the short-term; in the long term they will eventually reach the point of not being reliant on the US market.

                • John Konop says:


                  You are right they could replace our consumption if we paid them back, but our consumption dependency would shift back to our own country or western economies. And that would increase jobs here while strengthen the dollar. A win/win deal!

  6. GOPGeorgia says:

    David Staples offered up a link to the LP platform.

    I came up with the following questions and comments after reading, but I thought it was more appropriate to post in an open thread. Libertarians, please feel free to answer the questions or let me know If I got something wrong. I want to be fair and it’s about the truth….

    Here we go:

    Libertarians don’t believe in eminent domain, and that taxes are voluntary, and so is jury duty….. Good luck on getting a trial.

    There is no social contract theory that supports government funding of schools? “We call for the repeal of the guarantees of tax-funded, government-provided education in Georgia. As an interim measure to encourage the growth of private schools and variety in education, including home schooling, we support tax credits for tuition and other expenditures related to an individual’s education.” How can the LP call for tax credits when they think that taxes are voluntary?

    Under transportation, does the LP believe that one should have a license to drive?

    “We seek the elimination of occupational licensure“…be careful going to the doctor…or hiring a lawyer….or banking…or….or…or….

    “We call for the repeal of laws forcing health care professionals to render medical services in emergencies or other situations.” If you are unconscious and a Dr. is unsure of your ability to pay, be ready to meet your maker.

    No building codes, caveat emptor on your office building or home.

    Where does the Libertarian Party stand on national defense? How will you fund an army if taxes are voluntary? IMO, the draft should not be used unless we are in a time of war, where we could lose our county. AS I read it, it’s not an option under the Libertarian Party. I think you can own a battleship.

    Pro-prostitution, public drunkenness, pornography, and all drugs are Ok, so shoot up and I’ll see you on 285. Who decides when the roads need to be paved?

    Libertarians believe that there are no restrictions of free speech, so I can yell that “so in so” will burn in the afterlife at a funeral?

    Where do libertarians stand on abortion? “Further, one’s body is one’s to do with as one sees fit and is not the concern of the state in any measure.” It seems as if you are pro-choice. BTW, it’s a child, not a choice.

    “Such bald abridgements of the rule of law“…did you mean bold, or do you have something against hair?

    “We support full restitution for all loss suffered by those whose person or property is injured in the course of criminal proceedings that do not result in their conviction. However, we find the use of taxpayer funds for this restitution to be an added insult, allowing those perpetrators to escape their responsibility while adding taxpayers to the list of victims of such abuses. When they are found responsible, government employees, agents, or law enforcement officials should be held personally liable for this restitution.”…..So don’t prosecute anyone unless you plan on winning, otherwise the DA will lose his home.

    “The state should not use any covert surveillance of an individual’s actions or private property without the consent of the owner or occupant.”…..And how dare you try to get evidence to use in court against anyone without their consent?

    “We oppose the involuntary commitment of any person to or for involuntary treatment in a mental institution.” I can see some of them helped write the platform.

    “We favor an end to the acceptance of criminal defenses based on “insanity” or “diminished capacity” which absolve the guilty of their responsibility.” I guess in the LP world, every one is sane, crazy or not.

    Paraphrased, but not by much….“We oppose any use of questionnaires, polygraph tests, urine tests for drugs, blood tests for AIDS, or other means, by government or regulations requiring government contractors to impose any such screening.” ….so if you want a government contract, get liquored up, lie about your ability to do the contract, and go build that bridge.

    “We recognize the right to political secession as the ultimate expression of the freedom of association.”

    To sum up, If someone comes up to you with a gun and asks you politely for your money, this is a private contract between consenting adults and the police have no business interfering?

    • Mozart says:

      ““We call for the repeal of laws forcing health care professionals to render medical services in emergencies or other situations.” If you are unconscious and a Dr. is unsure of your ability to pay, be ready to meet your maker.”

      I am every day. And, if I’m “unconscious”, I won’t know the difference, will I? Neither will you.

      You have the right to life. You do not have any inherent “right” to a “continuation of life” if something knocks you unconscious, do you? ‘Cause if you think you do, then that means Obama’s presumption that the country is responsible for your life and health is 100% correct.

      • ByteMe says:

        You do not have any inherent “right” to a “continuation of life” if something knocks you unconscious, do you?

        Yes, and when that moment comes for you, let me be the first to say, “You’re welcome.”

        • John Konop says:

          One of the biggest issues with healthcare cost is end of life. The majority of healthcare is spent on the last 6 months of a person life. And letting people die with dignity over doctors using the patient as an experiment not only dives up cost but is not what the patient wants in many occasions.

          And that is why being against end of life counseling and calling it death panels is wrong. Both sides must take the emotional political side out of this issue or we will BK our country.

          The truth is Medicare is going broke and we must fix it, or if not it will BK our country in less than 10 years.

          Obama and the Dems are wrong for shifting dollars away from Medicare and not applying toward a solution. And the GOP is wrong with promising more benefits we cannot afford with the GOP Senior Bill of Rights! We need real adults, not partisan hacks pandering to hot button issues to fire up the base, while ignoring real solutions.

          • ByteMe says:

            There’s a difference between “unconscious” and “end of life”. At the very least, most of us hope that there is a difference when we’re unconscious.

      • GOPGeorgia says:


        You are correct that’ it’s a good policy to be ready to meet you maker. I’m not so sure that we can’t make it a function of the licensing of hospitals or doctors not to stabilize an ER patient or to make every reasonable effort to save their life and bill them later…but I’ll admit you have a point.

        On another note, I assume that the LP is against Georgia forcing people to buy auto insurance?

    • GOPGeorgia – while I don’t have the time to reply as in depth as I might like at the moment, I’ll try and at least partially respond here. I agree, the LP platform is rather radical. But I don’t think too many libertarians would expect to see our positions in full implemented. There are too many other differing opinions. So we have to negotiate and compromise. Large government meet libertarianism. They want a huge government that takes care of everyone, I want a government that mostly leaves me alone.

      As for the taxes being voluntary, yes and no. Let’s look at it this way. Say you own a piece of land. Now, say you’d like to be off the grid and mostly keep to yourself. But, you have to pay property taxes every year. Even if you’re fully self sufficient – growing your own food, making your own clothes, etc. – you still have to pay property taxes. No matter what you do, you’re forced to pay. Alternatively, a consumption tax you choose to pay. You can spend as much or as little as you’d like. The more you consume, the more taxes you pay. This is what I call a voluntary tax. (Not that I’m expecting people to become hermits and never leave their property. I’m simply saying that they at least have the choice.)

      Yes, I’m pro pornography – I don’t think anyone should be able to tell me what I’m able to watch on my laptop screen or on tv. There are technologies out there that can prevent children from watching these if their parents will simply take advantage of those technologies. Or send the kids outside to play like they used to do before these things were invented.

      Yes, I’m pro-prostitution. It already exists… people do it anyways. It’s no different than paying someone else for their services for anything else, except that the Bible says it’s a no-no.

      Yes, I am pro-choice. There are some libertarians who are pro-life, but the party itself takes the stance that until more scientists can agree on the subject, it’s best that politicians stay out of the matter altogether.

      Yes, you have every right to yell whatever you’d like at a funeral. However, you must also realize that other people have the right to drown out the noise you cause – ever heard of the Patriot Guard and Westboro Baptist Church? (Yes, I find it extremely ironic that a group of motorcyclists have to show up to funerals to shield the family from a group of church members.)

      Building codes – yes, I understand the value in these. But I also understand how ridiculous some of them are and the implications of some of these. I think someone should be able to hire a builder based on their reputation and have a third party inspect it if they don’t fully trust their work. Could you provide a copy of the building codes that were used when the White House was built? It seems to have held up pretty well if I do say so myself. Same with Mount Vernon.

      Essentially, the LP isn’t a party of anarchy. We’re a party of limited government. We realize there are certain functions the government must serve. But just as when you make an offer on a piece of property, knowing you’re going to be negotiating, you don’t start your offer at the asking price. You start way below the asking price and meet in the middle somewhere.

      • GOPGeorgia says:

        I wanted to highlight some of the more interesting planks in your platform. If you are going to ask Republicans to vote for the LP candidate because the GOP candidate isn’t sticking to the GOP platform, I think it’s kind of funny that you just admitted that the LP candidate has no intention of sticking to the LP platform. More later.

        • I don’t believe I said that at all. In fact, I never mentioned candidates at all. Perhaps you are translating this into German or French or something and what I said came out differently in another language.

          I’m saying that LP candidates should fight to limit the size and scope of government. If that means continuously voting no on bills that increase spending, then so be it. If that means continuously submitting bills to legalize certain things like Sunday alcohol sales, gambling, prostitution, etc. then so be it. I don’t believe I ever siad it’s okay for a candidate to totally stray from the platform.

            • John Konop says:

              The interesting part is both of you are making legitimate points. But our country was based on compromise and minority rights. That is why we have three branches of government and a representative system over straight democracy.

            • GOPGeorgia says:

              “I agree, the LP platform is rather radical. But I don’t think too many libertarians would expect to see our positions in full implemented”

              I thought you were referencing candidates, not party members. My mistake, Yes, I make them and occasionally admit them.

              Follow up question on pornography. Is bestiality or necrophilia ok? I am fairly certain you are not ok with child molestation.

              BTW, the Patriot Guard and Westboro Baptist Church deals with funeral processions. It is not OK to yell what you want at a funeral.

                • GOPGeorgia says:

                  The GOP Senior Bill of Rights covers four items.

                  1.) It disagrees with a commission of experts evaluate Medicare payment rates, as well as his proposal to eliminate subsidies to insurance companies participating in Medicare Advantage

                  2.) It is necessary “to prohibit government from getting between seniors and their doctors.”

                  3.) It would “outlaw any effort to ration health care based on age.”

                  4.) It would prevent government from dictating the terms of end-of-life care

                  I agree with the last three, but this is not currently part of the GOP platform. Neither is NCLB. And that’s what I am discussing.

                    • John Konop says:


                      You support the government paying for a hip replacement on a person with 6 months to live?

                      You support an insurance company to deny a person coverage to live based on profit, yet the government ie Medicare must provide it without any controls?

                      I could go on and on, but this is the reason our country is going broke. Both sides promising what people want with no way to pay for it! Logic like what you support is why Medicare pays our 3 dollars for every 1 dollar it takes in. Anyone who supports the Senior Bill of Rights is a fiscal liberal that is way too irresponsible to be in charge of anything!

                    • ByteMe says:

                      How do you know when there are six months left?

                      Was watching a TDS last night with Ricky Gervais talking about one of his co-stars who wanted to invent a watch that would count down the number of minutes left in your life. “How would that work?” asked Ricky. “Well, you just strap it on your wrist like a normal watch,” was the reply. Maybe you had to be there.

                    • GOPGeorgia says:


                      Let me rephrase, NCLB and the seniors bill of rights are not part of the GOP platform, and I am discussing platforms in this part of the thread. If you can admit that you were wrong to state that big Ben admitting to a crime, perhaps I’ll answer your question.

                  • Republican Lady says:

                    One of my mom’s doctors told her to write her congressman and ask that Medicare payments to doctors not be cut, or she will have to find another doctor.

                    The doctor said she no longer sees military patients because of the poor payment schedule and she now will stop seeing Medicare patients if the payments are cut. She also does not see Medicaid patients.

                    How will the government implement its plan if the doctors refuse to abide by it? I see a shortage of medical professionals in the near future.

                    • Republican Lady says:

                      To John Konop

                      Medicare was once well funded until members of Congress decided to borrow against it, then decided not to return the funds under the terms agreed upon.

                    • John Konop says:

                      Republican lady,

                      That is part of the problem, but the other issue is life expectancy, aging population and healthcare cost skyrocketing faster than wages.

                      That is why the only way this can survive is a combination of tough love cuts and increase in fess. Also indexing to life expectancy and or higher fee for younger retires. Also we cannot afford to pay out the amount of healthcare dollars for procedures we do on the last 6 months of a person’s life.

              • Mozart says:

                Beastiality involves innocent animals who cannot give consent. Same with necrophilia.

                I’m fairly certain Mr. Staples meant “pornography” was okay as long as what was being viewed was actions of consenting adults.

                Do you disagree with this viewpoint, GOPGa?

                • GOPGeorgia says:

                  ….but Mozart, according the LP, the government should have no authority to impose it’s will over individuals concerning property. Pets are property right? As far as necrophilia goes, it’s possible under the LP philosophy that two consenting adults could agree to comfort each other, even after death.

                  Personally, I understand the right of consenting adults to view actions of consenting adults. For the record, I disagree with bestiality and necrophilia. I also understand the social morays, which would give local government the authority to restrict the ability to buy and sell images of such outside of the line of sight of children. I was looking to get answers from the LP members on how their platform applied to those situations.

                  • As Mozart said, I was mainly referencing the mainstream pornography that most people consider. On the one hand, what if someone gives permission to have whatever acts done to them after they’ve passed away? Should the government step in and prevent that? And how often do you think we’ll run into this type of scenario? How many people do you know that are interested in necrophilia? Perhaps it’s just the social circles you’re in, but I can’t say I’ve heard any of my friends or family express the desire to have sex with a dead person. (Granted the same could be said for pedophilia, but that infringes upon the rights of living humans who may not be mentally capable of giving consent.) Child molestation typically refers to acts that are unwanted by the child or to scenarios where the child is not mentally mature enough or capabale of giving consent. I’m opposed to any form of sexual situation where a living human being does not give consent or is mentally incapable of giving consent. However, I would argue that people are able to consent to situations younger than the current age of 16 in Georgia. I believe a 14 or 15 year old who by that age is doing algebra, trigonometry and geometry probably can comprehend what sex is.

                    As for pets being property, I suppose they are. I also suppose that if they didn’t want whatever act to occur that they have ways of showing that, such as biting and kicking. Take a look at the precautions taken by horse breeders who use live cover (vs AI). From ropes and chains to contain the animal’s legs and feet to confinement areas, etc. I think animals have a bit more intelligence than you give them credit for, and lack the same moral code that Christians do. I don’t think they’d think twice about mating with something outside their species. That’s not to say that I’d be interested in doing or even watching something like that… but why should I prevent someone else from doing or watching that? In addition, I suppose it’s also kind of odd to me to say that you can kill an animal, but you can’t have sex with it.

                    As for sales outside the line of sight of children, I agree with you there. Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean that everyone is okay with it. Children should not be subjected to this material just from walking by a storefront. Openly selling this material (in my mind anyways) would be equivalent to infringing on the rights of children or parents or anyone else not wishing to see this type of material. I am okay with a store like this in a general shopping center, with the provision that the signage is appropriate and that any windows are completely opaque.

                    • Mozart says:

                      “I suppose it’s also kind of odd to me to say that you can kill an animal, but you can’t have sex with it.”

                      Conversely, you can have sex with a human, but can’t murder one. Topsy-turvy world, indeed.

                    • Well, murdering someone infringes upon their rights. Now, assisting them in killing themselves – such as Kevorkian – I have no problem with. It shouldn’t be a crime to decide when to end your own life.

                    • GOPGeorgia says:

                      “what if someone gives permission to have whatever acts done to them after they’ve passed away? Should the government step in and prevent that?”

                      Yes it should. Social morays trump individual rights in some situations. Abuse of a corpse is a crime in Georgia, regardless of if the deceased gave permission before passing or not.

                      If I understood you correctly, if an animal is not biting or scratching, it has more intelligence than I give it credit for and it can consent to sex with a human?

                      IMO, the GOP stands with laws preventing bestiality and necrophilia. If I have correctly interpreted your responses, the LP is OK with those very unlikely situations.

                    • GOPGeorgia says:

                      There are laws on the books to keep obscene material out of the line of sight of children. I think you stated you agree with that law. I do.

                    • I do agree with the law to keep obscene materials out of the line of sight of children. I’m not for a lawless society… just a reasonable one.

                      “Yes it should. Social morays trump individual rights in some situations. Abuse of a corpse is a crime in Georgia, regardless of if the deceased gave permission before passing or not.”

                      So let me ask you this then… how does making this a crime protect any living human being? I personally don’t see the harm in it… what you call abuse, someone that gave consent or permission before death may not. However, I also wouldn’t think this is an issue very often. Either way, I’ve got better things to do than argue the legality of necrophilia. I’ll let the necrophiliacs argue that one for themselves. 🙂

                    • GOPGeorgia says:


                      You have my thanks for helping explain the finer points of the LP platform. While necrophilia, as far as I know is not common, I have known people whose deceased relatives were victims of the crime of abuse of a corpse. I live 4 miles away from Noble Georgia, home of the Marsh crematorium.

                    • GOP – certainly, anytime. I realize that the LP platform probably seems rather radical. But in my experience, most libertarians are libertarians because they believe the two major parties have failed them in one aspect or another. They believe that the way to achieve change is through another party intervening, protesting and injecting itself into the debate. Without anyone to hold the two major parties accountable… without any sort of threat to them losing their power… the two parties would essentially have free reign to continue growing government ever more out of control than they already have.

                      I think there’s a huge difference in general corpse abuse – “A former crematory operator accused of dumping 334 bodies and passing off cement dust as ashes has agreed to a plea deal requiring him to serve no more than 12 years in prison, the Associated Press learned Tuesday.” – and necrophilia. Dumping bodies can be a health hazard. Also, those cases of corpse abuse probably didn’t have any consent of the dead person before they died, nor did they have any consent from the spouse or someone who would have had power of attorney for that person. Necrophilia can still occur before allowing a proper burial of a body. I don’t believe any of those people that you know whose relatives were victims of corpse abuse were victims of a necrophiliac, were they?

                    • GOPGeorgia says:

                      “I don’t believe any of those people that you know whose relatives were victims of corpse abuse were victims of a necrophiliac, were they?”

                      That’s a question to which I don’t want to know the answer. I don’t know.

        • Mozart says:

          Here’s the platform for the GOP in the area of “Government Reform”:

          Where were all these great ideas in the 2000-2008 timeframe? Oh yeah, the GOP did the OPPOSITE and spent like drunken sailors. Only, they made sure to interject a mention of The Lord in there every now and then to make it all righteous and all that.

          • GOPGeorgia says:

            I’ve said repeatedly that many of the GOP members in congress did not adhere to the platform and we deserved to have many of those members voted out. You won’t find me sing a song for them. The GOP in congress from 1994 to about 1998 was OK in my book. This current administration is trying to show us all how spending like drunken sailors is really done.

            • Mozart says:

              And yet you have a great deal of support for Nathan Deal…#8 on the list of Congress members who supported the Bush agenda.

              • GOPGeorgia says:

                I don’t agree with every vote Congressman Deal makes, but let’s look at his ratings with different issue groups.

                Representative Deal supported the interests of Planned Parenthood 0 percent in 2008

                Representative Deal supported the interests of the National Right to Life Committee 100 percent in 2007-2008.

                Representative Deal supported the interests of the National Council of Agricultural Employers 100 percent in 2007. (the Ninth District produces a lot of chickens in addition to carpet.)

                In 2008 Sportsmen and Animal Owner’s Voting Alliance gave Representative Deal a grade of 100.

                Representative Deal supported the interests of the Americans for the Arts Action Fund 0 percent in 2006.

                Americans for Fair Taxation considered how each congressional representative stood on the FairTax, illustrated with +3 as a sponsorship, +2 as a co-sponsorship, +1 as support, 0 as does not support, and -1 as against. In 2008, the actions of Representative Deal is represented by 2.

                In 2008 National Taxpayers Union gave Representative Deal a rating of A.

                Representative Deal supported the interests of the National Tax Limitation Committee 93 percent in 2007-2008.

                Representative Deal supported the interests of the Americans for Tax Reform 95 percent in 2007.

                Representative Deal supported the interests of the FreedomWorks 100 percent in 2007.

                I could go on and on and on…but you can look for yourself. All info was taken from project votesmart and I only put up the last 2 years work of ratings. I don’t agree with everything he does, but going by these ratings, he votes the way I prefer about 80% of the time. Granted some of the 20% is important, but he wasn’t going to beat in a primary for congress and the Dems running against him had no chance. Even if they did, I would still prefer Deals overall voting record over theirs.

                I am not endorsing him for Governor but I’ll say he’s been a better congressman than Indy and others would give him credit for.


            • John Konop says:

              You might find this interesting!

              100% of Obama’s deficits due to lower revenues, not spending increases

              A domestic policy adviser to President Ronald Reagan and treasury official under President George H.W. Bush explains that 100% of Obama’s deficits are due to lower revenues (i.e. the Bush depression), not spending increases.

              Bruce Bartlett: …Now let’s fast forward to the end of fiscal year 2009, which ended on September 30. According to CBO, it ended with spending at $3,515 billion and revenues of $2,106 billion for a deficit of $1,409 billion. To recap, the deficit came in $223 billion higher than projected, but spending was $28 billion and revenues were $251 billion less than expected.

              Thus we can conclude that more than 100 percent of the increase in the deficit since January is accounted for by lower revenues. Not one penny is due to higher spending…

              I continue to believe that the Republican position is nonsensical. Final proof is that the previously cited CBO report shows total federal revenues coming in at 14.9 percent of the gross domestic product in FY2009.

              According to the Office of Management and Budget, one has to go back to 1950 to find a year when federal revenues were lower as a share of GDP. For reference, revenues averaged 18 percent of GDP during the Reagan administration and were never lower than 17.3 percent – 2.4 percent of GDP above where they are now.

              I think there are grounds on which to criticize the Obama administration’s anti-recession actions. But spending too much is not one of them. Indeed, based on this analysis, it is pretty obvious that spending – real spending on things like public works – has been grossly inadequate. The idea that Reagan-style tax cuts would have done anything is just nuts.


              • ByteMe says:

                Doesn’t surprise me in the least. It’s the same problem here in Georgia. Too little revenue from too little economic activity. It’s different budgeting for 4% unemployment vs. 16% unemployment.

                • John Konop says:

                  That is why we must start producing and stop consuming foreign goods at this unsustainable rate from China. And also why China would cut deal on a transaction cost added to their imports to pay back the money we owe them. Like or not they are in the boat with us.

                  We need jobs, jobs…..

                  • ByteMe says:

                    Producing locally wouldn’t change a thing. Even if a widget is created in Outer Zooloo, someone has to import, market, sell the widget here and that creates one or more jobs here.

                    The problem is that we’ve taken the individual savings rate from a slight negative number and are pushing it up to its historical norm of 10%, which means we’re taking that much money out of the demand side of the economy. Combine that with high unemployment — more people not spending money.

                    Jobs won’t come until there’s more demand. Demand won’t come for a long time without more jobs (eventually, people will stop saving so much, but that will take a while)… unless there’s something to create a strong demand out of nowhere.

                    • John Konop says:


                      If you buy domestic over China imports you will create more jobs. And by paying them back not only does it free up capital, but the debt pay back charge makes domestic production and investment more viable.

                      The areas we would see immediate impact would be energy related products ie solar panels….farm goods and tool die.

                    • ByteMe says:

                      John, the thing is people are not spending on ANYTHING unless it’s a must-have at this point. And price matters. Many products from overseas — not just China, but check the labels on most of your clothes — are still cheaper than those produced here. You’re fighting an uphill battle trying to convince people in a slow economy to spend MORE money on local products when an equivalent (or better) product is available for less from an overseas supplier.

                    • John Konop says:


                      Real wages have dropped faster than any price gain on products from China. The problem is if wages do not go back up we cannot pay back China. And wages will go back up until we start producing more. We have no choice or it will be a race to the bottom.

                    • ByteMe says:

                      With 10% real unemployment and 16% un- plus under-employment, there’s no pressure for wages to go up here.

                      But there is in China and India right now. Go figure.

                    • John Konop says:

                      The spread between rich and poor is becoming larger in India and China. This is what Adam Smith warned about if labor does not have the same legal rights as the employer ie “Life, Liberty and Justice”!

  7. B Balz says:

    Missed this OPEN Thread, pardon my intrusion on your space, Mr. Reed. You are still a reprehensible little weasel.

    Good points, ByteMe. Perhaps these observations will address:

    First, there is not any linkage between SB330 and increases in rates. If you pay more to get more, that’s OK. The way things are going, doing nothing is going to get you a 30% rate increase.

    We both know buying ‘extra insurance’ is usually pretty cheap. I would expect the same actuarial logic to prevail here.

    Though the elimination of caps raises SOME risk, I don’t that will lead to a 20% cost increase. Maybe 1%, or some smaller fraction of all claims will approach the cap.

    Every bit of legislation has blowback or unintended consequences. As well, the cost of ‘decisions in progress’ is high. What would be YOUR best idea?

    So far, the insurance companies, to my knowledge, don’t have access to genetic data. I hope they never do.

Comments are closed.