I don’t know about the particular kids in question, but I know that when I personally was at that age was when I began to question exactly what I believed and why. EVENTUALLY, that questioning proved to be the tempering fire to the steel of my beliefs – but I was also changed by it in pretty dramatic ways. (For example, back as all this was beginning, honestly I probably would have been on the opposite side of this debate. I was SOLIDLY neo-con legalist theocrat back then. It was only when I began to question things and think for myself that I learned that the basics of all that I believed were spot on, but that the modern Church had so twisted things that it had truly become the very Pharisees that Jesus spent so much time speaking against and trying to show them the error of their ways.)

So who knows what is going on in those girls’ minds? God does, but I aint Him.

I do think that if they’re going to choose religious sayings for their banners, perhaps they should rotate through various religions. Make ‘em do some research on what the other religions believe, since I would imagine a majority of them believe what they’re told to believe by their parents. How many of them do you think have actually taken the time to research alternative religions? How do they know theirs is the only correct religion out there? Because the preacher told them so?

I laugh at these situations more than anything and feel sorry for their blind faith.

It’d be nice sometime to see the same furor over some appropriation bill applied to the social issues that libertarians used to care about.

Thanks for finally responding. Now that I’ve had a night to sleep on it, I’m not sure why I explicitly called out the party. Even though my sentiments do apply to party members I’ve interacted with before. It was geared more toward all libertarians, really. Small “l”. Big “L”, and just plain ole “L-leaning” independents. It seems like we do like to make mountains out of mole hills, particularly when religion is wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with erring on the side of liberty, it’s just that sometimes, there really is nothing to worry about.

Figured, “we” should make a comment.

As much as I love a good Jace rant, usually complete with a mixture of large and colorful words combined with a touch of red-neckness that only a learned southerner could pull off, I can’t help but find it ironic that he chose this topic to make a mountain out of a mole hill claiming the “we” libertarians need to quit making mountains out of mole hills. I guess “we” can’t help it.

I’m sure I’ll be accused of riding the fence on the issue at hand. My accusers will be correct, for I find myself agreeing with aspects of each side and my intent with this comment is to get the specific incident back to ground rodent mound status.

Jace is correct that WE as a party have bigger fish to fry (in society as a whole and within the LP itself) than to hound the BOE, administration and the cheerleaders of this school. I also, agree with him on the issue of force. There is none in this case, not even with peer pressure to participate. I see football games as an extra curricular activity. No one is forced to participate or even to attend the event. Players aren’t even required to participate in the post game prayer circle (which we see at a lot of state universities, even the li’bral ones). However, If something offends you that much, you can always vote with your feet. That said, as a libertarian, I do believe in separation of church and state. And if I were in attendance of this event, I’m sure my auto reflex action at seeing the banner would have been an exaggerated head shake, complete with eye roll (thanks, ByteMe), especially due to the current state/achievements of our education system here in Georgia. This is clearly at least a violation of maybe a “right” thing in the wrong place. I would have been more impressed with a quote from a great historical document, other piece of literature or an infamous person. Since football is considered a battle on the grid iron, a good Patton or Churchill quote would have been more apt and EDUCATIONAL. However, for this to get a greater reaction out of me it would have had to take place during normal school hours at a mandatory attendance assembly or similar, but it wasn’t. However, for those that feel much stronger than I, it does bring up the need for more school choices. But that’s for another time.

So Jace, my friend, here’s looking forward to your next rant. Hopefully the guns will be pointed out next time. Stay safe my brother… your future beers are… and are being kept chilled awaiting your return.

In the two major political parties, there’s an established doctrine that you must subscribe to for the sake of party unity or risk being shunned by fellow members as a flip flopper; and forsaken by everyone you thought were your friends—those whom you thought respected you for your views (which happened to be exactly the same as everyone else’s in the party until you went off course with your sense of individualist opinion-forming nonsense).

GOPGeorgia did post a statement by the superintendent (if I recall correctly) which claimed that the signs were made with taxpayer dollars. But, that’s about the best and only argument there is against this, I’m afraid. It does present a problem, but one that could be easily overcome by private fundraising, and then they’ll be back to beat up football players with paper signs.

Sorry, but those of you expecting the government to have the ability to protect you from religious annoyances—well, I’m afraid you’re going to have to keep hiding behind your couch whenever Jehovah’s Witnesses come knocking at your door, just like the rest of us do.

Clearly, you’ve never gone through the battles I have. You can’t imagine the relief I felt when I FINALLY found a church where the pastor recognized that church was not a fortress – it is a hospital. You don’t go in there perfect and prepared for battle, you go in there with whatever you have on you at the time, battered nearly beyond recognition, and you beg for something to help you.

I came to libertarianism through my battles with legalists and theocrats. They wanted me to act a certain way, to think a certain way – they never wanted me to be free.

The problem is, GOD DOES! Humans are the ONLY beings in ALL of Creation with Free Will! Why would He give us that, knowing that it would cost Him his own Son?

We are the only beings in all of Creation that can willingly choose Him or not, and that is why we are His most prized creation. How DARE legalists and theocrats cheapen that by trying to force people to choose certain things? Do you honestly think that the God who knows our very hearts is pleased when people do things because others told them to? Did Christ not spend the vast majority of his three years of active ministry both reaching out to the outcasts while slamming the very religious establishment that placed them under such oppressive laws?

What about theChange? What about the Difference? People don’t know we are Christian because of 10×20 signs on a football field. They know we are Christian because of how we act AFTER the game. How we act in the hallway, at the party, at the swimming pool over the summer.

THAT is something that most Christians seem to have forgotten, and that is something I’ve been fighting for over a decade already.

Establishment.

Moving on.

And finally, the point I have been trying to make this entire time shines through.

Never in my entire life, did I ever think I would be in danger of being called a theocrat. But the sensitivity of many Libertarians, libertarians, and libertarian-leaning independents toward anything that involves the reconciliation between religion and state, is appalling. Dude, I am about the least devout person you could ever meet. And I have my share of disdain for the so-called “religious right”. But I’m not blinded by my disdain. It’s clear that some of you are. You can’t see beyond your own “hatred (for lack of a better term)” for the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world. You associate anything religious with fools like that, and you end up falling on your sword for what? Because a couple of cheerleaders put a sign up?

I say it again, get some perspective, man. There is evil in religion, because there is evil in people. Religion has an oppressive nature because people have an oppressive nature. But not everything dealing with religion is oppressive or evil.

Some of it truly is a light-hearted way for a bunch of high-school students to profess their faith. There was nothing evil, nothing oppressive about what they did. I know it, and you know it. They didn’t shove anything down anyone’s throat. I know it and you know it.

I fear the “outrage” mentality more than I fear the “entitlement” mentality in the United States. Everyone has to get “outraged” about something. There literally is nothing to see here. Move on.

And as I’ve pointed out multiple times for your ignoring pleasure, religion in school is a nuanced issue but the Supreme Court has provided good interpretation and balance between the two clauses.

But let me go ahead and answer your original question. If it requires for me to side with people who insist on shoving religion down my throat to give the Libertarian Party some sort of legitimacy, then count me out.

Then again, if the true north libertarian argument is nothing better than sputtering about hurt feelings, black helicopters and tin foil hats, then you see pretty quickly why I counted myself out long ago.

Good to hear from you my friend. I hope you’re doing well, and I look forward to taking you up on that beer offer when I get home for good in March/April.

You’re right though – they didn’t infringe on my right to do anything. Never said they did.

What I’ve been saying is that they were demanding SPECIAL rights for THEIR religion that are unconstitutional.

MASSIVE difference there.

Just because there is a judicial precedent for something, does not make it right.

But do what you need to do Grift. Stop those malicious cheerleaders from forcing everyone to convert to Christianity.

Or grow up.

I could care less which you choose to do.

Or you could look over in the other thread (since you seem intent on cross posting all over the place) where I quoted a lawyer explaining the nuances in the actual law here.

You know, Jace, the law? Something that once upon a time (along with reason), I thought was something highly respected by libertarians.

But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there’s a libertarian strain that involves defending those intent on shoving their peculiar brand of religion down the throats of every available captive crowd.

Must have missed the meeting on that one.

I don’t remember forcing you to read anything, so I could give a sh*t if you don’t care to read it.

Government only complicates things and makes allies think they are enemies.