No, not really. In truth, football players at Lakeworth-Fort Oglethorpe High School in Catoosa County have been running through paper signs like these for six years before every home game. And then someone complained. Now, the cheerleaders criminal masterminds have been ordered to stop their unlawful and devious practice by the Catoosa County School System. More here. Anyway, they are holding a rally tonight to try and convince the “powers that be” that it’s all good.
Welcome to the Real World, kids. You are permitted only to worship President Obama in school, dig?
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As I said this morning, the school system complied with Federal Constitutional Law.
As I said a few days ago on FB, the 10th Amendment does NOT supercede the 1st.
The 1st requires a strict neutrality where government involvement or endorsement of religion is concerned.
But hey, continue to pander to theocrats, GOP. You just expose your own hypocrisy every time you do it – just like when you decry Federal healthcare spending but beg for Federal “disaster relief” – NEITHER of which are Constitutional.
BTW:
An absolutely BRILLIANT quote from the Catoosa Superintendent on the issue:
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what is for supper. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ehh… this post has a photo that: (1) is actually pertinent to explaining the context of the post, and (2) is not of a black person. Cut Pete some slack, it’s a step up.
Very true Steve, I will give him that!
Well, he did find a way to work Obama into his post.
And the Christians in Catoosa are the oppressed minority?
Right. Uh-huh.
Actually, I was using the non-Christians and those Christians who oppose this kind of thing for any number of reasons as the lamb there.
It’s just the Christians who are acting like the oppressed minority, because they can’t get their way.
They really should have used a verse from the Quran as it’s probably more descriptive of football.
Qur’an (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter …and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion (or football) is for Allah.”
But hey I’m sure no one in Catoosa county would have a problem with that.
Yeah, that was one of the very questions I asked one of my commenters… would she have the same position if the cheerleaders had used a verse from the Koran, Baghavad Gita – or even the Book of Mormon?
Actually, that does sound more appropriate for football.
I’m sure this would have been OK:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”
Charles Darwin
That would seem more in line with the subject matter (competition) than the one shown in the photo.
Makes sense..
Welcome to the Real World, kids. You are permitted only to worship President Obama in school, dig?
oh..STFU. Your children get enough indoctrination in Church.
When they allow the teaching of biology in Sunday School, only then we should we tolerate mythical verses on campus.
Set and Setting. Time and place.
I’m sure your G_d will get over it.
Back in the old days, these folks called Puritans came over and decided that they were not only going to have a theocratic form of government, but that they were gonna whip anyone who didn’t comply with their interpretation of the word of God.
In order to guarantee the American people that this would hopefully never happen again, the framers of the Constitution decided that the government should never make any law to establish a national religion.
Yet, despite their best efforts to prevent theocratic tyranny from ever again returning to this land, the problem has worsened so much to the point that . . .
cheerleaders made a sign.
Thank God for cheerleaders.
Thank Obama, according to Pete.
Especially the ones that are at least 18 and are willing to pose for certain websites in exchange for cash.
While I don’t agree with the arguments given against the cheerleaders, as a Christian I don’t like what the cheerleaders are doing. God’s Word is too holy and precious to me to see it as a banner for a football team to run through and tear up. This cheapens Scripture by putting it on the level of a “Go Team Go” slogan.
Which is pretty much how I feel when I see our Savior’s name used to sell buy one get one free thongs at Victoria’s Secret in December. Why so many Christians are not offended by this and also actually insist on companies continuing to use the word Christmas to hawk their wares is beyond me.
Jesus thongs? I’ve not seen those. I’ll jkeep myeyes opene though so I can get my wife a pair this year..
If we are always making accomodations for those of other religions, tolerance if you will, ie, Korans at Guantanimo and the like, why can’t we expect a similar degree of tolerance for those who practice the Christian faith, you know, the 80+% of the people who make up this country? I’m just sayin’…It’s so easy these days to bash the Christians and unfortunately it’s even fashionable to do so.
Tolerance for allowing someone to practice their faith is different from tolerance of only one religion’s quotes being publicly displayed on banners probably paid for with public tax dollars. Nobody is trying to prevent them from practicing their faith, but there are appropriate times and places for everything.
I’m sick and tired of all this diversity! Why can’t Christians profess their faith in public just like the Jews and Muslims? I doubt there were any Jews/Muslims on the football team or cheerleading squad to get offended anyway! Jeez people, lighten up, it’s just a banner.
I would wager that there were probably a few atheists or agnostics though.
Umm… Jews don’t profess their faith in public except maybe through their clothes (orthodox only). I also don’t recall Muslims in this country trying to stamp every government building and lawn with a moon and star.
What are the odds that ANYONE in Catoosa isn’t Christian? If they aren’t there to get offended, then why should the Atlanta crowd get so peeved?
So Catoosa should have a Bill of Rights exemption?
If counties could get a Bill of Rights exemption by not having any minority groups, counties could drive out their minorities and then claim the exemption to stay that way. Then we might eventually all be forced to live only in counties that were “like us”. That would suck if me and my fellow Caucasians had to move out of Fulton County.
We had a great turn out in Ft. Oglethorpe tonight. We were very please that with just under 30 hours of planning, we had over 1,000 in attendance. (we based that on the fact we had about 980 sign the petitions)
The rally tonight was not to debate the issue, but rather support the cheerleaders. If they wan to fight this fight, and it will not be easy, they need to know the community supports them. I for one, agree they should be allowed to have their signs, for they were paid for not with tax money, and not initiated by a teacher.
This will be on Fox & Friends in the morning live with an LFO cheerleader, I hope you can catch the story.
One minor correction, the school is Lakeview Ft. Oglethorpe, not Lakeworth.
I got this today:
“Dear Concerned Citizen,
Thank you for your email supporting the LFO tradition of Bible verses on run-thru signs at football games. I am personally very proud that our students have continued this expression of their Christian beliefs; however, they do not use their own money to purchase the materials. Unfortunately, displaying a Bible verse on the football field violates federal law. This violation could result in law suits or loss of our federal funding.
While I must comply with the law, it is also very important to me that our students have the opportunity to express their religious beliefs. I have spent the weekend working with our legal counsel. We have designated a visible area outside the football stadium for the signs. In fact, this will allow for the signs to be displayed longer than they are on the field. I am also very impressed that our students have taken this opportunity make a personal expression of their Christian beliefs by wearing t-shirts and making signs with religious messages to display during the game.
I appreciate your email and your support for this LFO tradition. I am so proud to live and work in a community that values Christian beliefs. I hope you understand my responsibility to comply with the law even when it does not align with my personal beliefs.
I have attached a copy of our press release with our attorney’s interpretation of the rulings of the Supreme Court and Court of Appeals on the 1st Amendment. I will be glad to respond to your email if you have additional concerns.
With kindest regards,
Denia Reese
Superintendent
Catoosa County Public Schools
P. O. Box 130
Ringgold, GA 30736
706-965-2297 phone
706-965-8913 fax”
and this:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 28, 2009
FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION CONTACT:
Marissa Brower, Communications Specialist
[email protected]
706.965.2297 phone 706.965.8930 fax
423.802.5313 cell
Catoosa County Public Schools has determined it is a violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution for signs with Bible verses to be displayed on the football field. Superintendent Denia Reese said, “I regret that we had to ask the LFO cheerleaders to change the signs used in the stadium prior to football games. Personally, I appreciate this expression of their Christian values; however, as Superintendent I have the responsibility of protecting the school district from legal action by groups who do not support their beliefs.”
The 1st Amendment to the United States Constitution forbids the enactment of any law or practice “respecting an establishment of religion.” The purpose of the Bill of Rights was to protect the rights of the minority; for this reason, the stamp of approval of religion by the government is not a matter subject to majority vote.
Regarding public education, families entrust public schools with the education of their children, but condition their trust on the understanding that school activities will not purposely be used to advance religious views that may conflict with their religious beliefs. As a result, the courts prohibit Rabbi-led prayers at school sporting events, Wiccan posters in gymnasiums, and reading the Koran over the school public announcement system.
The U.S. Supreme Court and Court of Appeals have ruled that religious activities at high school football games create the “inescapable conclusion” that the school endorses the religious activity. Violations of these rulings can lead to lawsuits resulting in injunctions, unnecessary legal costs and damages that have to be paid by the local taxpayers, and possibly the loss of federal funding.
Mrs. Reese commented, “I regret that the cheerleaders can not display their signs in the football stadium without violating the first amendment. I rely on reading the Bible daily, and I would never deny our students the opportunity to express their religious beliefs. We have researched alternatives, and I am pleased that we can designate an area outside the stadium to display the signs prior to games at LFO. I appreciate that our community has rallied in support of this LFO tradition.”
Congratulations, LFO cheerleaders. You have actually read your Constitution. Too bad most people who are the self-imposed experts have not. Show me where it says “wall of separation” in the Constitution and I’ll introduce you to Big Foot that someone supposedly found in the North Georgia mountains a couple of years ago.
I can’t show you “wall of separation” any more than you can show me “Thou shalt hold banners with bible verses on football fields” in the constitution or in your bible.
Awesome
Jeremy, Doug, and Mountain Republican (among others):
Again, what would have been your reaction had this been a verse from the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon, or even from one of the sections of Torah that is not part of the Christian Bible (or, for that matter, one of the books from the Catholic Bible that is not considered canon among Protestants)?
My position would be EXACTLY the same, for EXACTLY the same reasons. Can you honestly say the same?
Jeff,
I would say MY reaction would have been exactly the same, however, I do not think the public outcry would be the same.
I am fighting on the front of free speech. The cheerleaders choose the messages, and were told to take them down. The messages, by most any definition were not offensive in nature. (as defined by “community standards, the litmus test prescribed by the Supreme Court when dealing with offensive (porn) material).
NOW, since the messages were religious in nature, that fired up the Christian community, which as someone pointed out, would entail nearly every citizen.
If the messages were from the Koran, I would have fought with the same ferver for them, and the segment of the community who uses the Koran as their book of worship, would have attended the rally instead of the Christians, thus, the rally would have been held in someones spare bedroom.
I understand what you are saying, and to segregate the Christian beliefs and outcry on this story is near impossible, and I am a believer, I am a defender of the cheerleaders on their right for free speech, and free expression of religion.
Instead of looking to the “porn” tests for Constitutionality, you may want to look to the “Lemon tests” for Constitutionality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
Or we could just continue talking about the poor oppressed cheerleaders.
Jeremy:
Again, I am also a believer. I’ve been in situations where I was literally the ONLY Evangelical Christian (though I DESPISE that term) in a “Scriptural Lit” class in college where I faced an onslaught every time I walked into class from both my fellow students and the professor – trust me, I HAD to know my stuff then just to survive! While my knowledge of the Bible isn’t foolproof, I’d certainly be willing to stack it against most anyone roughly my age – possibly up into their late 40s/early 50s as well. (Admittedly, I stand in awe of many senior citizens’ knowledge of the Bible – and considering how RARELY I admit to something remotely close to that, you should know how much a MAJOR compliment to them that is!)
That said, again: NO ONE WAS DENYING ANYONE ANY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS when ordering the cheerleaders to move their sign outside the stadium! They were NOT told they could not have the sign. They were NOT told they could not freely express their religion.
They were SIMPLY told that they – and their religion – could NOT have a platform to speak and express their religion that no one else had!
Government controlled platform
I’m agreeing with Grift on this. West Hall High School in Hall County does a prayer over the loud speaker prior to all football games. Can you imagine not standing up and acting like you’re praying? Consequences to your child? Missionaries at your house? The band also has a chaplain who leads prayer before every band meeting.
Those are just the things I know about. All three of my kids went there.
Just thinking about the cruelty of teenagers and the problems of growing up.
Then, you have overly zealous religious freaks damning kids to hell for not praying to Jesus. Not needed.
Not with my tax dollars.
This may damn me to hell, but I agree with Mad Dog.
Hrmm… anyone up for attending a few West Hall High School football games with some air horns to blast during the opening prayers?
Jeff,
The school did not force anyone to adhere to a religion. It did not endorse a religion. No inquisition. No forced conversions. No beheading. No administration officials requiring Bible reading, mandatory prayer, submission to any religious icon. Nothing.
I am, quite frankly, embarrased that a fellow Libertarian would take such an extreme position against, what is NOTHING MORE than a bunch of kids exercising two parts of the first amendment: Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion.
The desire for Libertarians to distance themselves from the religious wing of the GOP is understandable. And I empathize. I really do. But you’re severely overreacting, and completely ignoring the wording of the First Amendment…and since most Libertarians would consider themselves to be “strict interpreters” of the constitution, it would seem to me that the wording would be really important to you.
But don’t let that get in the way of grandstanding and trying to promote traffic to your blog.
And by the way, if it had been verse from any other book, my position would be the same: I could give a rat’s *ss. It doesn’t hurt me one bit. And it doesn’t infringe on my right to worship in any way or at any time or to any diety I want.
Jace:
Had these kids been doing the same exact thing at a PRIVATE school, you wouldn’t hear a PEEP from me in opposition.
The fact of the matter here is that with the cheerleaders doing this, the logical conclusion is that the school condones the behavior on at least some level – thereby suggesting that the school approves of this flavor of Christianity, which thus DOES give the imprint of government endorsing a particular religion.
Never forget one very important fact about me in regards to these debates: My Conservative Christian credentials are pretty dang strong. I can detail them privately for anyone that really wants to know, I’d rather not bore the board with them. Feel free to email me any time at southwestgalibertarian at gmail dot com if you so choose.
Indeed, I *personally* believe pretty much everything everyone on the opposite side of this debate is saying. The key distinction for me is that Government can NOT FORCE anyone to believe ANYTHING – and by condoning these actions, you are condoning the force of peer pressure to try to force others to believe things they otherwise might not.
Like the school system said, if these kids want to display these banners before the game in some other location where theoretically banners from any other group could be seen, I FULLY support them doing so, and actually very much encourage it. Their message DOES need to get out there – again, I completely agree with that.
The ONLY objection I have here is that you are giving Christians a government-sanctioned outlet that you are denying to others by the very fact that there can be only one of these signs per game, due to the very (current) nature of them.
It did endorse a religion. The team represents the whole school, not just the Christians.
Obviously, with a UGA symbol as your avatar, you don’t have a proper education to be able to understand the Constitution. Libertarians, like Republicans and Democrats, are subject to their own opinions and interpretation. This libertarian agrees with Jeff.
and by condoning these actions, you are condoning the force of peer pressure to try to force others to believe things they otherwise might not.
Jeff, where in the constitution are you provided protection from peer pressure? I couldn’t find that section. What you are provided is protection from Government establishing, endorsing, and forcing you to act in accordance with a certain set of religious beliefs. Peer pressure will always exist, regardless of scope of Government you believe in.
Even you have to admit, if the closest thing the school board or school came to giving was a passive endorsement, by not saying anything. But the school board/school isn’t required to say anything. Because it was a group of students, acting within on their own accord, without being coerced by government, who professed their beliefs. That simple. The school board shouldn’t be able to say anything to prevent a public profession of faith by a group of students.
In fact by now prohibiting the students from openly professing their beliefs, the school board is actively denying the first amendment right of unpopular free speech to these students.
And, once again, I would feel the same way if it was a group of Muslim students, Wiccan students, Sun worshipers or whatever.
I want to know how you plan on convincing anyone that these students infringed on any of anyone’s individual rights.
Jace:
Who owns the logo/name on these girls’ uniform?
Who owns the land they are standing on? the stadium they are standing in?
Furthermore, NO ONE WAS DENIED ANYTHING. They were told they were perfectly free to have their banner in a location where any other group could, but that they could NOT have special privileges to display their banner where no other group could.
Let me use an illustration from my hometown:
In Cartersville, there is a decent sized park that over the 30+years of its existence has become a center for both leisure and civic activity – it is from within that park that the annual July 4th fireworks are fired, and many charitable events are also located there – but it is a PUBLIC park.
Now, right across the road sits a small church on MAYBE 2 acres of land, sandwiched along a small strip of land between a hill whose cliff is taller than the church and the road.
Cartersville is a lot like Fort Ogelthorpe. Very conservative, very Christian. Lottie Moon, of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Lottie Moon Christmas offering fame, is from Cartersville, as is Sam Jones, a very famous preacher from about a hundred years ago. Indeed, at least one former President of the Georgia Baptist Convention was a preacher there just before he ascended to that role, and there are a number of churches in the area with regular attendance at or above 500.
Now, roughly when all the stuff with Roy Moore was hitting the fan, the citizens of Cartersville wanted to place a 10 Commandments monument somewhere in town, and Dellinger Park was the logical place to do it – it had the most traffic of anywhere in town, so a monument there would be seen by the most people.
Obviously, the problem was that Dellinger Park is public land.
So this small church, literally basically one of those old sanctuary-and-not-much-else buildings, put up a 10 Commandments monument on its property – right outside the main entrance to Dellinger Park. Literally almost exactly across the road from the center line of the road into the park.
Perfectly played solution. The Christians of Cartersville got their monument, and it is on private land – even though that private land happens to be directly across the road from a major park, and directly beside a major road in its own right. (This road is the primary road connecting Cartersville Elementary/Primary to Cartersville Middle, in addition to having the main entrance to Dellinger on it.)
Actually, most of Washington DC is public land & has many monuments like the 10 Commandments on the grounds & buildings.
Most of those buildings were also built when slavery was legal…
So., your point is?
Hence the reason non-Christians fight these battles where they can.
I find it amusing how many posters here are arguing a battle they already lost.
Jeff,
You are absolutely grasping at straws. You’re basically promoting the Orwellian “Free-Speech Zones”, that most small-government individuals avidly oppose. “You can say whatever you want…as long as you do it over there.” What exactly is free about speech if the government tells you when, where, and in what manner it can be spoken?
The “public” owns the school, and the “public” owns the land. Last time I checked, a group of citizens is allowed to express their views on public land…I mean, unless the thousands of tea-party protesters all met in someone’s backyard….but, if you’re logic is followed through to fruition, the government could theoretically break up the tea party protests by designating several very small “free-speech zones” that are to disparate to garner any attention from anyone.
No Jeff, as non-chic as it sounds, I believe in the free expression of religion–even for (gasp) Christians. Moreover, I believe in the concept of individual rights. I don’t believe in “group rights”. And I don’t believe that anyone has an inherent right of freedom from offensive materials.
You simply cannot explain to me how ANYONE’S individual rights could be infringed by what the cheerleaders did. You can’t even explain it in a theoretical sense.
And…as far as the “other students who can’t put a sign up because there’s only one sign that the team bursts through”…um, I doubt very seriously that those “oppressed students” have ever even asked to put a sign up. If they did, and were denied, then and ONLY then might you have somewhat of a case to complain against.
This kind of shit is why no one takes Libertarians seriously. We do a piss-poor job of picking our battles, and consitently point to the “oppressive government” boogeyman, even when he’s not there.
Actually, I generally say (and this is what I’m envisioning here) that the area for groups to display their banners would be right outside the main gate to the location of the event – in this case, the stadium itself.
I’m not talking about “free speech zones” at all. I am saying that you can NOT allow one particular group special privileges to display its own beliefs that you would not allow any other group.
Now, if you want to allow ALL of these banners to be displayed on the football field – and at least a few members of the football team run through ALL of them – hey, I’ll withdraw my objection.
Again, I am NOT advocating “group rights”, NOR am I denying ANYONE their right to freely express their views. YOU are the one doing that, by saying that Christians should have the right to promote their religion in a place no one else can!
I’ve explained over and over again how people’s rights were being violated – you are the one that can’t get it through your thick skull.
I know you’re more worried about dodging bullets and making sure yours go where they’re supposed to – thanks for that, btw – but if you get a chance, check out The Circle Novels by Ted Dekker. EVERY Christian should read those books – they’ll certainly open your eyes! (In fact, I’m reading Green right now, and so far it seems like it will actually play almost directly into this very conversation!)
Jeff,
No…you didn’t demonstrate jack sh*t. If you can point to me one single instance at Catoosa where Muslim, Jewish, Sun-Worshippers or whatever actively sought to have a banner for the football team to run through, but were DENIED that right, then I will drop my argument.
Until then, all you done is build up straw man after straw man just to knock them down.
So Constitutional rights only exist if someone explicitly asks for them?
Great post Pete !!
I wonder what Pete’s reaction would have been if African-American cheerleaders at an inner-city high school had painted a banner that said “Praise Allah.”
Or if aboriginal Austrialians played with dreidles in the hallway.
dreidels* sorry
SO, your point is?
The point was obvious. The Constitution and the times in which it was written wasn’t freaken perfect. So stop pretending the authors and the wording ARE FREAKEN PERFECT.
Got it?
So, your current thinking is FREAKEN PERFECT ?? No I don’t get it.
Not responsible for your not getting it. I ain’t giving it up for you. Ask Bill Simon if you ain’t been getting it.
This provides another great tune to add to the paranoia soundtrack running through a lot of Republican/Southern heads around here.
They really are out to take your country away from you. Bwahahahahaha….
Maybe if they spent more time teaching children proper capitalization rules and less time on the Bible, they would make better signs.
Kudos for your patience transcribing the sign.
Thanks.
I am not sure I got it right. Some of those Is look like they might be dotted.
You all realize that the football team runs through the banners that are made? The cheerleaders are told to make a banner for the team to run through, but not what to say. By the way, the signs had a religious message starting somewhere in mid-September, 2001.
The administration caves to a single complaint. Maybe they should take down the flag as well, because it might offend someone.
It is a good case of freedom of speech v. establishment of religion. Considering the signs don’t say visit X church this Sunday, or Baptists rock, I fall on the side of free speech. If members of other religions, or atheists have a problem with the message, perhaps they should try out for the cheerleading squad?
If you really think they should not use these banners, do you want to take “in God we trust” off our money and tear down all the monuments in DC with bible verses inscribed on them?
I am willing to bet that you will see hundreds of signs at their next home game, maybe not on the field, but in the stands, supported by the community. I’d like to see a case filed for free speech infringement.
Considering the signs don’t say visit X church this Sunday, or Baptists rock, I fall on the side of free speech
That’s very Christian of you.
<blockquote.I am willing to bet that you will see hundreds of signs at their next home game, maybe not on the field, but in the stands, supported by the community. I’d like to see a case filed for free speech infringement.
Different issue altogether – well, unless school/school system employees are also doing it. Even then, I would tend to consider it their off time (not including coaches/other teachers directly supervising various groups such as the team, cheerleaders, band, etc) and thus not a problem.
At issue is whether the cheerleaders, specifically in uniform on the football field at the beginning of the game, count as agents of the school. Grift has had some great posts explaining that legally, YES, they count as agents of the school. Therefore, since they are agents of the school at that point, these banners are unconstitutional – and if this has been going on since 2001, then clearly the Courts would be correct in assigning some penalty for every infraction going back to that time that can be proven.
If the general public wants to have their own banners, I don’t give a rat’s @ss. On THAT one, I will agree with most of the rest of you that it is a free speech issue, and I’ll be defending the crowd on any debate on THAT issue.
“The administration caves to a single complaint. ”
If it’s a valid complaint, how many do you think it should take?
“perhaps they should try out for the cheerleading squad?”
Perhaps they have.
If the squad is like most schools, the existing squad makes the decision on who gets to join.
They can ban someone as “doesn’t get alone with others” … “not a good fit” … etc etc
That’s what happened to me when I tried out.
Should-a shaved your legs.
Right. And they can ask if potential cheerleaders like the uniforms or not, but they can’t ask them if it’s OK with them if they make a Christian banner for the team. It doesn’t matter if anybody has a problem with it or not. It’s not permitted in any case within this context.
‘If you really think they should not use these banners, do you want to take “in God we trust” off our money’
Actually, yes, I do want to take that *back* off our money. I also want to take “under God” back out of the pledge, since it wasn’t added in until the ’50s I believe it was… (?) Why should the pledge have been changed after however many years to say “one nation under god”?
Should we tear down the SCOTUS justice building because it has the ten commandments on it?
Red herring. And an old and smelly one.
It also has Hammurabi, Solon, King John and several others because it is an homage to lawgivers through history.
Strangely, certain people only see one particular one.
Fair enough, but it’s a little known fact that the justices also run through a hand-painted Ten Commandments banner before every oral argument. It’s something the law clerks have been putting together since 9/11 to keep the terrorists from winning. The first time they tried it Justice Ginsberg ran ahead of the others and bounced off the paper instead of tearing through it. Everybody got a big kick out of that. She’s still trying to live it down. Bless her heart. These days she just sort of follows in behind Scalia to avoid further mishaps.
“do you want to take “in God we trust” off our money”
Yes.
And one of the lawyers in one of Pete’s articles (shocking I know!) gives a good explanation of the differentiation between the Free Speech and Establishment of Religion issues here.
““The whole thing goes back to the dividing line the Supreme Court has drawn for many years now between school-sponsored religious speech — which is prohibited by the Establishment Clause — and student-sponsored religious speech, which may be protected by the free speech and free exercise clauses,” Mr. Haynes said.
The distinction is in the relationship between a “group” and a “school,” he said.
The signs violate the law because the cheerleaders, when they’re in uniform at a game, represent the school, he said.
“Even though ‘students’ are delivering the speech in this case — the cheerleaders are obviously students — they are doing it in their capacity as a school-sponsored group,” he said.
“I don’t know how a judge would rule, but I would say, from past cases, that the courts would see this as carrying school sponsorship, just like if the school football team came on the field with verses on their shirts,” he said.”
grift,
Who are we endowed by with certain inalienable rights?
Ourselves, of course. It’s self-evident.
GOPGeorgia,
If that’s so critical to our government, why is it the only mention of religion in the Constitution is a prohibition against its establishment?
or the free exercise thereof?
That too.
I wonder what Pete would think?
Greg Boyd, senior pastor at Woodland Hills Church in suburban St. Paul, Minn. has written a provocative book on the subject, The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church .
……”I believe a significant segment of American evangelicalism is guilty of nationalistic and political idolatry. To a frightful degree, I think, evangelicals fuse the kingdom of God with a preferred version of the kingdom of the world…For some evangelicals, the kingdom of God is largely about, if not centered on, ‘taking America back for God,’ voting for the Christian candidate, outlawing abortion, outlawing gay marriage, winning the culture war, defending political freedom at home and abroad, keeping the phrase ‘under God’ in the Pledge of Allegiance, fighting for prayer in the public schools and at public events, and fighting to display the Ten Commandments in government buildings…Fusing together the kingdom of God with…the kingdom of the world is idolatrous…This fusion is having serious consequences for Christ’s church and for the advancement of God’s kingdom.” (p. 11)….
“Two Contrasting Kingdoms
…..The kingdom Jesus came to establish is ‘not from this world’ (John 18:36), for it operates differently than the governments of the world do. While all the versions of the kingdom of the world acquire and exercise power over others, the kingdom of God, incarnated and modeled in the person of Jesus Christ, advances only by exercising power under others. It expands by manifesting the power of self-sacrificial, Calvary-like love.” (p. 14)….
http://vanguardchurch.blogspot.com/2006/08/myth-of-christian-nation.html
John,
There has been lots of research on religion and government. In those countries with an official or unofficial church there is less freedom and less religiousocity and less church attendance.
But, banning a religion usually doesn’t stop faith.
MD
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