Jenny Hodges is out with another video about another incident involving the Oxendine campaign.
Hat Tip: SWGA Politics.
Fresh Political Pickins From The Peach State
July 19, 2009 20:03 pm
Jenny Hodges is out with another video about another incident involving the Oxendine campaign.
Hat Tip: SWGA Politics.
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{ 217 comments }
Is it only me but do these tattle tale videos seem a little juvenile?
I’m with you, Jeff.
It’s amazing the amount of access you have to look at IP addresses, Dash.
It’s nowhere near the level of access my tongue has to my cheek.
Very juvenile.
Very, very, juvenile.
I’m thinking about doing something about Glenn today just to switch gears a bit.
Well, Jenny, even if it is “juvenile”, you are the hottest “juvenile” out there.
I got pretty hot responding to Jason below.
Jenny got a bit pissy. Jason will probably de-friend me later today on Facebook. But I was really responding to a few people on this thread.
I can’t wait until The Ox camp tries to blame their downfall on the lib’ral Ray McBerry campaign.
I heard that Ray McBerry and Just Jenny are both agents hired by the AJC for the sole purpose of taking down The Ox…
I heard that, too.
Now where’s that paycheck?
While I can’t stand Oxendine, it is no wonder that nobody considers Ray McBerry as a legitimate candidate when his campaign director continues to post diary videos on YouTube tattling on Ox campaign workers.
It’s kind of like salting the potroast and gravy once it’s on your plate. It’s the only part anyone sees you do, but you spend the previous 7 hours actually doing the work of preparing dinner.
MMMM pot roast. And Duff beer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo882ga58uk
Ox Goons – they are so precious
First, Jenny called them “Ox Nazis”.
Now they’re “Oxies”.
What’s next? “Oxy-Morons”?
Maybe Jeff Breedlove should cease communicating with the McBerry campaign except to politely say “hello” and “goodbye”.
Good suggestion. Oxi-morons. I like it. It fits! A “grassroots” campaign, full of hired people. A “True Reagan Conservative” who thinks that the role of government is to help those who can’t help themselves. What an excellent suggestion! Also, I wonder how Mr. Oxendine would feel if someone from the McBerry camp (or any other camp, for that matter) came up to him (more than once) and told him he had the most obnoxious campaign director, and he needed to fire them. I doubt he would be pleased.
I for one do not want to see Jeff Breedlove fired. I hope Deal will hire him when Ox is through.
Jeff Breedlove, or anyone else in the Oxendine campaign has called other campaign staffers or volunteers hate filled names in the manner of the McBerry campaign.
Poor Ox, Jeff and Brian. For anyone to cry foul and point out when they are in the wrong is ridiculous and unsavory. Excellent zinger, Grits.
Uh, huh. Right. Please don’t run for office. I would hate for someone like you to be the only thing standing between my liberty and a paid lobbyist.
You are one sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.
ya’ think?
Oxy-Morons. That’s funny. It’s right up there with McDingleBerries.
Maybe that should have been the title of this thread.
Oxy-Morons vs. McDingleBerries take 2.
Maybe we should put this whole thing in perspective:
The reason that Breedlove asked for this “campaign managers” dismissal is the fact that she has called Oxendine staffers, supporters and even hinted at Oxendine himself as being Nazis, one of the most hated words in the English language.
Words are important and words do matter. Sane and rational people understand why Jeff Breedlove would call for Jenny’s termination. What is hard to believe is that a so called “candidate” for Governor of Georgia has not only NOT dismissed her, he has NOT disavowed her comments and said that it’s a personal thing that needs to be taken up with her. Is this how this guy would handle a staffer if he were elected Governor? (Okay….quit laughing…We all know he’ll never get more than 2% and that’s a stretch.)
But calling good and decent people, especially volunteers, Nazis is down right repulsive.
Jenny Hodges and Jeff Sexton can try and deflect the real issue, but when it comes right down to it the real issue is how Ray McBerry handles this.
The Oxendine volunteer Hodges is talking about is Joseph Robert also known as my Mechanic Joe from Bartow County. He and his wife are well respected small business owners in Cartersville and are highly regarded as such. You should be ashamed of mentioning his name and the word Nazi in the same breath. You viciously attacked a very good and hard working person with your verbal assault.
The bottom line is this: Many of us have seen the character of several people over this incident.
Jeff Breedlove has done what any SANE person would do under these circumstances. He has defended the good names of volunteers, staffers and his candidate. He has however, suggested that people who allow this kind of garbage to happen sacrifice their right to be included in the arena that we all love, amatuer or professional. Ray McBerry and Jenny Hodges have completely failed as a candidate and manager, respectively, by using hate filled innuendo to try and bring their campaign publicity at the expense of good peoples’ names and volunteers at that.
No one says that John Oxendine or Jeff Breedlove are without flaws, but this incident is all McBerry and Hodges. They are totally at fault and are wrong. They should both be ashamed.
TG:
I’m not exactly one to defend McBerry. Indeed, I see him as just a big a theocrat as Ox himself, with a much better track record of walking his talk in regards to liberty – but still a theocrat at the end of the day.
But Ox’s views of free speech are becoming pretty well known in practice, and it is clear he doesn’t mind trying to silence views he disagrees with.
Nobody is trying to silence a view. Just a reprehensible hate-filled word pointed at good people.
TG:
I use the ‘top of your lungs’ standard on free speech:
(obviously, the above is from ‘The American President, emphasis mine)
Ox’s actions recently (this incident and the bumper sticker thing from July 4 in particular) – and those who would muzzle Jenny for using the word ‘Nazi’ – show how they REALLY feel about that.
Oh, and in case y’all have forgotten, I’m not one to defend Jenny when she’s being truly crazy, as she was after the Tillman murder a month or two ago when she said she was ‘thrilled’ that the guy had been killed. In fact, I called her and those like her in the pro-life movement the ‘PETA of the Right’, and it is a characterization I stand by when it comes to some of her actions with the pro-life movement.
Jeff- you are misquoting me. I did not say that I was thrilled the guy had been killed. I said I rejoiced that an American terrorist was dead who had butchered 60,000 late term prenatal American babies, and that the man who murdered him wrongfully was not a pro-life activist, but was lashing out at the civil government who had acquitted Tiller of 19 criminal charges.
Tiller was doing illegal late term abortions in Kansas and because of his close ties with Sebellius was getting away with it. He even had a crematorium in his butcher shop so he could efficiently burn the bodies after delivering them.
But he’d have a little baptism ceremony first, and take pictures of the parents with their baby’s mutilated corpse put back together, wrapped in a blanket, and tucked in with a teddy bear.
He was a sick bastard the civil government should have put safely behind bars.
I rejoice that Tiller is dead and no longer butchering babies 6 days a week and burning their bodies.
If any of you think that my position is out of line, it says more about you than it does about me.
Jenny:
My PETA of the Right post puts up pretty clearly exactly what you said at the time, including “Killer Tiller is Dead, Praise the Lord!” and “I’m thrilled he’s dead.”
Tiller was doing illegal late term abortions in Kansas
Please cite where, either in federal or in Kansas law, that “late-term abortions” are illegal.
McBerry a theocrat?
Hahahahahahahahahahahah.
Jenny:
He wants to use the force of government to dictate his personal religious belief – which is theocracy.
Know what the true difference between a benevolent dictator and a malevolent one is?
There isn’t any.
You have no proof for that, and I have proof of the opposite. Ray does not drink alcohol, nor has he ever. Yet he firmly supports the Sunday Sales of Alcohol bill because it leaves it in the hands of local county government. And Ray supports local self-government.
Bill- Troy Newman is a personal friend of mine, who is the President of Operation Rescue in Kansas, and was doing all the investigative research on Tiller. He was about two months from having the medical board of Kansas revoke Tiller’s license. He was very disappointed that Tiller was murdered.
Yes, Jeff. Thank you for quoting me correctly. I’m thrilled he’s dead, I never said I was thrilled he was murdered, nor did I justify the person who murdered him. Tiller should have been safely behind bars at the time of his wrongful murder.
Jenny:
Define ‘human’ life. Is it just a bunch of cells that happen to form a particular animal we call human? What about sentience? When does sentience occur? Is there such a thing as a ‘soul’? When does it come into being?
Scientifically conclusively prove both the sentience question and the soul question, and I may be able to start giving you more of the benefit of the doubt.
Until then, it is a religious/moral question, and therefore one that government should stay out of.
Ray wants to force his own religious views on this subject on every Georgian using the force of government, and therefore he is a theocrat.
Jeff-
That argument is so entirely lame that I’m no longer having it with you.
As far as a theocrat, then I guess to believe in God granted life and liberty is to be a theocrat, which makes our Founding Fathers a bunch of crazy theocrats.
If you want to remove God from the equation, you are reduced to an advanced monkey (well, some people here have not really advanced that much), and it’s all about survival of the fittest, and the fittest gets to be the tyrant.
Ray believes in your right to be a godless idiot. So get off it, and stop giving me that kind of crap.
Jenny:
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? …Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819
The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion. – George Washington
Yep, sounds like a bunch of theocrats to me… :-/
…and of course we can’t forget these:
…this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it – John Adams
My mind is my own church – Thomas Paine
That means Thomas Paine was a (gasp!) HEATHEN!
Anyone who is so idiotic as to confuse the authority of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Law Code of the 1700′s in the colonies with personal letters written by Thomas Jefferson to his friends, colleagues, or constituents with whom he needed to pander, is a blow hard and fool, and it is equally idiotic to attempt a rational discourse on American law and politics with the aforementioned fool.
TG
“hate filled innuendo ”
Isn’t that what you did towards her, me and others not so long ago?
GOOD POINT!
My comments to you and Jenny might have been less than nice, but saying a person lies or panders is quite different than calling a specific name like Nazi. Once again, no one is trying to squelch her Freedom of Speech. However, some things are out of bounds. Calling someone a Nazi most certainly is.
Would Soup Nazi have garnered more appreciation? You should have been picketing outside of Seinfeld’s studio–you and Jason, along with pip squeak John Oxendine–oh, was that mean and derogatory?
I mean I shouldn’t pick on the guy cuz he can’t afford pants that fit with all the money he’s paying all his campaign peeps.
You mean what any sane politician would do. Instead of addressing his own wrong doing, he merely attacks me without any wrong doing charges.
Typical. The grassroots real people get kicked to the curb for crying foul play when the political whores at the top are total jerks in their pursuit of power, money, and influence.
Nice, True Grit. I’d say you’re microwaved processed grit food that some yankee company manufactures over seas, and pedals to unsuspecting super Walmart customers.
Nice Jenny……The “Grassroots” movement of the McBerry campaign calling volunteers of another campaign Nazis. Then your candidate fails to apologize or disavow your comments. Very nice.
I’d tell you to kiss my ass, but my ass is way too good to be kissed by you.
If Ox hires bullies to run his campaign, who do ya’ think he’ll appoint to thousands of positions within our government, all being paid by our tax dollars.
jenny,
I agree with you on the bully comment, but he just does not hire bullies, he is a bully himself.
I was open to Oxendine when I was one of the few people who went to see him speak at a Bibb County meeting. I liked a great deal of what he said, but some of his actions since then has made me believe he has no business anywhere near any form of power.
I have a number of friends who he and his staff have tried to intimidate because they supported his opponents (including attacking their livelyhood), and this is one thing that I will not stand for. There is absolutely nothing that Ox can do to ever change my mind into thinking he is anything other than bottom of the barrel scum.
I am not a supporter of Ray MacBerry, but I do respect him, and I do think that if he did not come out the winner in this exchange, it is clear that Oxendine came out the loser.
I have said it before on hear, but calling anyone a “Nazi” cheapens what the Nazis actually did in history. Having most of my family who did not immigrate to the U.S., but stayed behind in Poland and Austria wiped out as part of the Nazis’ “Final Solution,” comparing that to some squabble about a bumpersticker is ridiculous.
I don’t mind Jenny airing her grievances about Oxendine or any other candidate, but comparing Oxendine’s volunteers to a Party who was responsible for the mass murder of millions is over the top.
Mmmm. Would you prefer if I called Oxendine an asset to prenatal murderers who set up butcher shops in Atlanta, and sell aborted baby tissue to “science.”
When Oxendine was asked why he had done nothing to curb businesses having to pay for abortion coverage on insurance plans for employees, he said he need to stay within federal guidelines regarding abortion coverage.
Nazis at least picked on someone their own size. Oxendine pretends to be pro-life when in fact he has not taken a single stand in defense of the 35,000 Georgians butchered yearly in Atlanta, nor has he used his bully pulpit and 15 years in office to curb the slaughter, promote life, and expose corruption.
His lame pathetic defense to me was: “Jenny, I’ve done everything for pro-life that you’ve asked me to” and then stood there with a smart ass grin on his face like he’d really gotten me with that come back.
I responded: “I shouldn’t have to ask.”
I take the open butchery of thousands of Georgians in the womb very personally.
The Nazi term is perhaps too nice.
Wake up, self-righteous arrogant Republicans. The eugenics agenda of Nazi Germany was spawned in part through the work of Margaret Sanger and the Rockefeller fortune, which founded Planned Parenthood in America to exterminate human weeds and the negro population.
Margaret Sanger opened the first abortion clinic in Nazi Germany.
The kind of corruption, bullying, and self-interest politics is taking us down a road nationally that reeks of the gradual demise of Germany in the 1930′s.
The term Nazi has come into our vernacular and certainly has been diluted, similar to the way our very violent society has come to openly accept and celebrate the murder of unborn babies, the trafficking of aborted baby tissue for scientific advances, development of immunizations, dissection classes in medical schools, and other cannabolizing of our own kind and species.
We look the other way while our Governor, who teaches Sunday school at Woodstock Baptist Church (aka, Six Flags over Jesus), enslaves our populace to our faux “bailout” and promotes legislation to increase federal tyranny, control and regulation over every area of our lives.
We celebrate and cheer our Congressman who have become nothing more than political whores of a system that is a mockery and insult to the blood shed to defend our life and liberty. Our legislators claim and pledge their service in the defense of a Constitution that is defecated on by these very politicians who hold our babies, and ask for our money to drive their campaigns, while they privately mock the efficacy in Constitutionally restrained government.
Yet, you fools decry such light hearted banter that I offer, claim to be indignant for the evil abroad, while negating the evil within our midst, and running to the defense of those who are amongst the guilty arbiters of our tyranny.
I feel sorry that you are reduced to so pathetic a position, and bicker over mere crumbs, while the meat of liberty is thrown to the dogs by the very men whose asses you kiss.
and there Jenny goes with the ‘PETA of the Right’ stuff… dang girl, I was TRYING to defend you a bit!
I take prenatal murder very, VERY, personally.
Now if you want to abort puppies, kittens, or possums, feel free. I’ll defend your right to “choose.”
And yes, I’m a member of PETA- people who eat tasty animals.
Hmmm…alright, NOW put this on video, Jenny, so we can see just how “hot” you got in your response to Jason.
And for all of you doubters……I rest my case. Thank you Jenny.
TG,
Jenny just cleaned your clock in logic and passion for her cause. I may not agree with her, or her viewpoints on the whole pro-life issue, but she has quite the ability to inviscerate anything you can possibly put up in defense.
AND…she actually has the balls to sign things under her own NAME. Do you have those kinds of balls, TG?
Typing with a vengance. I’m calming down now. Maybe you should head up here for some foccacia, Italian wine, and chess. The breeze is absolutely divine. It’s 69 degrees out.
Speaking of wine, I did pick-up some new choices from TJ’s the other day. One is 12.5% alcohol and the other is 13.5% alcohol. I may be too dulled with that content, though, to give you a good challenge in chess.
(and, no, it is not the pink wimpy variety
Oh, good. Then maybe I’ll have a chance winning next time we play, instead of getting thoroughly cremated like last time.
Good lord
Isn’t it unpatriotic to criticize a fellow Georgian while on yankee soil?
But since John Oxendine is originally from Tennessee, I think it’s cool. Dang, I hate orange!
Well, actually I was born in Milwaukee. Moved to Atlanta at the ripe old age of 4.
And John Oxendine is more a carpet bagger than a southerner quite frankly.
I agree using the term “Nazi” is way over the top. Yet I do not think Jenny intent was to use the term in a hateful manner just a lack of sensitivity toward history.
I also think Jeff was way over the top going after her job with Ray. I have met Ray a few times and he is very even temper guy from what I have seen. And for Jeff to get that response from Ray I would guess he was fairly obnoxious.
I am lost how this situation is a gain for OX? And I thought part of the OX plan is to go after Ray vote in a run-off, so how does this help?
John,
The truth is Ray seems to be a nice man and a lot of Oxendine supporters THOUGHT he WAS a good guy until this incident. This whol thing was a big mistake by first his “campaign manager” and then by him. Many people act defensively when they are guilty of something, as Ray has. Since you weren’t there, John, maybe Ray feels that he and Jenny are wrong in this, which they are, and he’s acting with a defensive posture.
How it helps Oxendines’ campaign? Not everything is a calculatd political move. As I posted earlier, we are seeing the true character of people because of this incident. I know Jeff Breedlove and John Oxendine and I know that Jeff never gave a thought to how this would get votes or lose votes in a runoff. My strong suspicion is, however, that Jeff’s only thoughts were trying to defend the character of Oxendine volunteers and staffers who have been labeled this repulsive, sick and appalling name.
John, people who post on PP are getting so jaded as to thinking that everything is a political move that when you see a real human reaction to a situation you don’t recognize it as such.
A funny thing about Jeff’s post from above is that when he puts out his standards for Freedom of Speech he has to rely on a liberal Hollywood movie to quote from. No one denies that Jenny has the rights in our country to voice her opinions, but most people DO understand that words that are out of bounds such as Nazis, the “N” word, the “Q” word have no place in America and especially in a campaign, whether it be for Dog Catcher, Governor or President of the United States. People can prove their point without reaching back to their arsenal of rancor.
Until Jeff mentioned it above, I wasn’t aware that Jenny has a pattern of malicious messages of meanness. Perhaps we are looking at someone who is truly insane.
Out of one side of her mouth comes a Pro-life speech and out of the other she delights in someone’s killing. Maybe someone should remind her that she’s not God just yet…..
TG
What part this do you disagree with?
You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who’s standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can’t just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the “land of the free”.
TG:
How’s this one:
-The Patriot (scene where one guy objects to having a black man fight along side of them, said by the Frenchman working with Mel Gibson’s team of colonials)
Also applies to many within the Ox camp, at least from what I have seen and experienced.
True Grit:
“I know that Jeff never gave a thought…” Yeah that sounds about right for the Oxendine campaign up until this point. Ox might be a good candidate if his campaign staff was not ruining it for him at every turn.
Where were all you people when Seinfeld coined the phrase “Soup Nazi.”
Mmmm?
I’ve been thinking exactly the same thing, Jenny. Just had other points to talk about so far.
After all, wasn’t Seinfeld, the “show about nothing”, one of the most popular shows around in the 90s/early 2000s?
From True Grit to me -
“Why the heck do you continue to slam Ox about doing his job? It appears to me that all you are doing is pandering for your boy McBerry at Ox’s expense with NO substance to your lies.”
“John is running for Governor. No doubt. But he puts his job as Insurance and Safety Fire Commissioner first and foremost before ANY campaign event and for you to say anything different is just a complete and utter smear. ”
“Ox can multi-task. He can juggle his job as Commissioner and candidate and not miss a beat. Apparently your guy can’t walk and chew gum at the same time either or you wouldn’t be slamming Ox as you pander for McBerry.”
“Maybe you should read John’s Facebook articles instead of just using his page as a forum to continue your personal attacks.”
“I think you should use your next post on Facebook and on PP to offer Ox a public apology.”
This is just one of the attacts towards me just because I asked Ox ‘How he had so much time to campaign?’
I sent it to Ox and asked him for an apology for being hounded by you, TG but I never got a response instead he and Brian Laurens deleted me from their FB list. Classy!
I’ve said it before, Kellie, it is a problem and part of the system we have. You can ask how the Governor has time to govern during a re-election campaign. As far as I can tell, none of the candidates are independently wealthy so how do they have time to earn a living, serve their constitutents, work in Congress, the SoS or DOI and run for office.
So far no one has come up with a better solution. Even if you make someone resign to run for another office, they still lose work time when they run for re-election.
Jason, I only put that up to show TG’s response to me. I wasn’t trying to rehash it. sorry.
You should be the one running Ox’s campaign.
Jon got de-friended recently by Oxendine. He felt honored.
So, “I’m too close for missiles, I’m switching to guns” from 1985ish era (re: Top Gun, to those unwashed masses who have not seen the film) has now become “I’m too close for missiles, I’m switching to de-friending the bastard(s)!”
I like it. It has a certain degree of…how you say…panache.
Yeah, but in my mind when I hear pip squeak Ox chortle it out with that stupid grin, somehow it is totally lost on me.
Rules taught in Professional Politics 101, include ” NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE that any other candidate EXISTS until you must at the first debate on tv.
Strategist ARE NOT ALLOWED OUT IN PUBLIC is another basic rule.
“Pushing a candidate or a cause is dangerously close to selling consumer goods, a statement that’s been true at least since the advent of democracy”
“Beware of the consultant who has quick, easy answers for difficult questions. Watch out for those whose only solutions to campaign problems involve greater expenditures.”
http://www.epolitics.com/onlinepolitics101.pdf
Technocrat:
Thanks for the link. It actually does look decently solid/helpful.
For clarification, TrueGrit appears to be Brian Laurens Kellie. Hence, when you sent “John Oxendine” a message on facebook, you were actually sending one to Brian Laurens.
ChiefofStaff,
You are lying. That is not Brian as I know Brian and he is not on Peach Pundit.
If he were…you can guarantee bet that the a-holes who run PP (i.e., Erick & Crew) would have long ago exposed him as such…because, despite their claims of protecting anonymity, they have demonstrated multiple times of not adhering to such policies…and pretty much use PP as they see fit for their own petty political purposes.
Furthermore, after Erick slammed into the Wall of Truth regarding his incorrect claim (i.e., at least 3 different threads of absolute CRAP from Erick) that Brian was responsible for the oh-so-horrid, most-apparently-damaging-thing-that-could-ever-be-laid-at-Handel’s feet of the high school diploma/GED crock of who-gives-a-hoot, you can be sure that Erick scoured the entrails of PeachPundit posts to see if he could “catch” Brian in ANY way posting ANYTHING, and…Erick found zero with which to use against him.
Brian is not True Grit. Stop your lying.
Bill is right. I know who he is, but that is TG’s business and I will not out him, except to say that he is not Brian Laurens.
Thank heavens, TP is not Brian. I was surprised to hear that.
I for one, genuinely like Brian. He needs to seriously chill out on the campaign trail, but he’s exceedingly likable, and essentially harmless in other circles.
Bill
You need a vacation!
The brutality of the truth NEVER needs a vacation, John.
You, of all people, should know that. You practiced it continuously on this blog, as well as your own.
I know who TG is.
AND…Brian Laurens was not responsible for the Wikipedia entry change. SO, CoS…you would be wise to stop spreading that bull as well.
Man, I long for the good ole days when everyone just ignored McBerry. Back then, him and his people where just a nuisance that set up silly protest outside of GOP events. The fact that Oxendine’s people have even informally addressed them is a good sign they’re clueless.
Its also a solid sign of desparation, much like Breedlove calling me back in April shortly after ‘Ox and Liberty, Part 1′ came out. Think about it: at that point, next to nobody knew who I was. I was very much a nobody, and yet because I had put a negative report up about Ox on the Web, I became such a threat that I warranted a phone call from the Chief Strategist?
Ox’s people are running scared, and have been for quite a while. That they are engaging the McBerry campaign is only further proof of this. Think about it: they’ve gone from duking it out with Karen Handel, a person some think may at least be in a runoff in this Primary, to bickering with Ray McBerry, a person almost NO ONE thinks stands ANY chance? Meanwhile, they’re letting the top 2 fundraisers from this past period, Deal and Johnson, off almost scot-free?
Looks like someone may be dropping down to run a re-election campaign for his current office…
The point is not whether McBerry has a chance. The point is that he or his campaign have NO reason whatsoever to call anyone associated with ANY campaign one of the most hated words in the English language.
You can bet that if Bob Barr would have said something racially derogatory about Obama or his staff, the Obama campaign would have come out swinging. The point that Barr had no shot would be irrelavant.
The point is, NO MATTER what McBerry or his people say, you do NOT engage him. Ever. For any reason. He’s a ghost. Were I running for statewide office, I would hope that my chief strategist would have better things to do than to read PP, watch viral videos from a marginal-at-best candidate and start engaging them at events, etc.
I said before the Ox campaign ocillates between “cliche” and “misstep”. Now we can add a third dimension “petty”
BC – You are correct sir. That’s why they will be very lucky if they even make it to the run-off.
The fact that I have decided to speak out against Jenny and her candidate no way is an indication that anyone in the Oxendine campaign gives McBerry or his campaign any credibilty or relavence.
TG:
Maybe not you, but when Breedlove and other paid staffers are doing it, it certainly DOES give an indication that the Ox campaign is giving McBerry quite a bit of credibility and relevance.
Nah. You haven’t spoken out against me. “TrueGrit” has spoken out against me.
I just clicked on your name and got Ox’s website. Oh, brother.
If this is Brian Laurens, thanks for the beer and pizza at Tech Square. That was really fun.
Have you tried New Castle? We’ve got to ween you off that girly beer you drink. I think that’s what’s affecting your logic. Come over for a New Castle and some grilled beef when I get back from Wisconsin.
What does any of this have to do with Karen Handel only raising $430,000?
If I was OX I would fire my campaign manager for making this an issue to begin with. What a bunch of dopes.
Isn’t the internet wonderful? Without PeachPundit and YouTube no one would even know who Jenny is, let alone flip out over her comments. Without all this, the alleged front runner with all the money wouldn’t even know what a small time fringe candidate was saying about him.
True Grits comments are appropriate — but only if you just tuned in. If you’ve followed Johnny’s career over the years, you’ll know that indiscriminate bullying and intimidation are one of his characteristics. Its not surprising that those around him act the same way.
I’m with Jayson on the use of the word Nazi. Jenny will understand and change her language.
Jenny — stop talking about campaign staff and get back on target. Tells us more about Oxendine and Nathan Deal. And the Brewers are playing good baseball right now, and Miller Park is a trip.
AlanR
I was just thinking the same thing. Without the internet, I would be completely irrelevant. And so would other genuine grassroots efforts.
The dirt bags in politics have always been around, but the ball game is a little different now because of the internet. A new Revolution is possible and evolving out of the internet.
Maybe we should all send Al Gore a thank you note.
On recycled paper, no less.
these videos are hilarious. is ray mcberry running for class president?
I agree that the video’s are pretty cheesy. However, they are running on a pretty tight budget, so give them a break.
I don’t know Jenny, so I can’t back up her accusations… however if true she has a good point. And as for Ox being upset about the “nazi” comment… come on! If someone were comparing Obama’s policies to Communism would he be this upset? No! It’s just because she attacked him and his folks for being thuggish in response.
However, with that said – Jenny definitely is not exhibiting herself as a classy or dignified campaign manager. It’s one thing to make your point and defend yourself and the campaign… but she comes across as childish when she gets into the petty arguments here on PP.
And as for Ox’s campaign manager – didn’t he get a new one a few weeks ago (Tim Echols)?
IW
Was not the new campaign manager Benedict Arnold? Or was it Judas Iscariot?
Not classy or dignified? Sniff, Sniff. Ouch.
I wasn’t really going for that look. I was going for the “not a political whore” look, which I think I’m sporting quite well.
And yes, you people ticked me off today and I threw up all over this thread, LOL.
However, in my defense, I post my lame videos for the 30 people who care on my youtube site. Were I intentionally posting my stuff on Peach Pundit, I wouldn’t have chosen this topic. I was rather mortified to see it here on the first go round. But then, once it’s on the internet, it’s anyone’s game to peddle it. So I put up my 2nd video on my youtube site as a follow up defense for my Oxie/Ox Nazi term. I’m through with this topic now. I’ve produced a new term in Georgia politics, and it has gotten a little traction, and it has amused me.
This place isn’t exactly a classy, dignified forum. It’s the locker room of politics. And I’m here to roll up my sleeves and jump in the fray.
When it’s all said in done, and I’m six feet under, I hope that it will be said Tyrants loathed me when alive, and rejoiced at my death.
I hope that it will be said Tyrants loathed me when alive, and rejoiced at my death.
Hey! Can I use that too, or is there a copyright on it?
Jenny,
I couldn’t agree more… I too hope that the same is said about me when I’m dead. However, I don’t think that our founders fought tyranny in quite the same way
I’m sure you have read their writings… they were a little more “dignified” and “classy”. Did they hold punches? Absolutely not. But I dare say there would be precious few founders who would consider the discussion here today as needful to keep tyrants at bay. My only point was that as a campaign manager you should AND do represent your candidate. Therefore maintaining a dignified and classy composure is a necessity for a campaign that wishes to be seriously considered – which I think people should consider McBerry as a serious candidate. However I think today probably made that a little more difficult for some people 
IW,
If you think the number of people who read this blog amounts to a hill of beans of the voters in the primary…then you’re truly out of touch with reality. This blog is a mere circus sideshow of the political arena.
So, to your point of “I think today probably made that a little more difficult for some people”, the number of “some people” to which you refer is, oh, approximately 0.001% of what the total Republican primary vote will be next July.
Bill,
I don’t pretend to think that PP is a clearing house for the sentiment of the general voting public. However as GOPGeorgia said below…
“You can assume that PP is just locker room talk, but things have a way of getting out of PP and into other political circles public if the topic is right.”
Things said here, or any other blog, will find the light of day if your candidate is anywhere in the running.
Bill,
I made a guess. It was not a fact I stated. Since others spoke up and clarified, the issue I raised was cleared.
Also, I never once mentioned the Wiki article. So, please do not include me with that mess.
CoS,
Just making sure I was heading you off at the pass. My apologies for accusing you of directly engaging in it (whoever “you” are
Well, Bill, Republicans do tout pre-emptive actions these days, so surely no good Republican could blame you.
I’m typically only a casual reader of PP, and have never made a comment, but today I feel compelled. I know I’m not a member of the “club” so to speak, but come on; someone with some semblance of rationale needs to speak up. These “Jenny” videos are childish and unprofessional. I’m undecided, as my name states clearly, regarding the governor’s race, but I now know I am definitely not for McBerry. I haven’t seen such juvenile comments – the video or the abortion rant – since 10th grade! And quite honestly, I am so confused about why some people are standing up for her. I mean, the Nazi comment really isn’t a big deal, just silly – but I can understand how it would be offensive to the Oxendine camp – they are just defending their volunteers. True Grit has been a tad snarky in the past, but today I agree with him. Now that I’ve had my say, shouldn’t you all talk about things that are important, say like the qualifications of the candidates for instance, instead of rehashing the squabbles of the candidate’s staff? Carry on…
I’m typically only a casual reader of PP, and have never made a comment, but today I feel compelled
NOTE: I don’t believe you in this statement. Why? Because it reads so much like you are trying TOO hard to deliver some fake message that you are completely “neutral” on the matter.
As far as what you feel about how Jenny appears in these videos…at least she has the BALLS to speak-out under her own name and identity. All you do is hide behind your “Undecided” screen name.
People who have the balls to speak-out unequivocally about things and expose people who are acting like they act have earned the respect of people like me, and you’re darn tootin’ you will see me “stand up for her.”
So, nice try, Mr. Regular-Reader & Commenter-Under-Another-Screen-Name. Run along to go invent another troll-like name to pop-up on here like a noisome gopher on the golf course.
It’s Ms. “Regular-Reader & Commenter-Under-Another-Screen-Name” you giant wind bag – and I don’t use my name because I don’t want creepy old guys like you stalking me! What is this, “Let’s See Who Can Develop the Best Conspiracy Theory Day” on PP? This is the first time I’ve commented on here, but I can tell you, with idiots like you running the show, it won’t be the last!
Yeahhh…I figured you might be a woman after I made that post, but decided to let the natural course of time happen for you getting upset over my claim.
As far as “stalking you,” you’re a tad full of yourself, aren’t you? You sound like one of those nutcakes who calls the cops all the time making false claims about people “stalking” you.
“–and I don’t use my name because I don’t want creepy old guys like you stalking me!”
Um, Undecided, you have an incredibly high opinion of yourself if you imagine that anyone in this forum cares enough about you to waste the time to stalk you.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
P.S. Yes, I KNOW you don’t like me. People like you never like people like me who tell the truth.
No it’s the brash arrogance.
Yeah…and those folks who hide behind their fabricated screen names do not display “arrogance” when they pontificate about anyone and anything about which they care to without attribution to their true identity. Noooo….
Tell me, Rugby, in your world, does a green hue pervade every corner of your existence? That’s not the “green” of plants and trees. That “green” is caused by mold and mildew, and you apparently inhale this every day and its effect on your abilities of cognition is quite apparent.
What the hell are you talking about Bill?
Rugby,
As you said in another thread earlier today, “Don’t take things so seriously on the Internet.” You’re getting a mite bit upset up there, Ruggy, with your What the hell are you talking about Bill? outcry.
Mmm…brash arrogance…..As opposed to humble arrogance?
Like you? Who said anything about liking you? I think the “giant wind-bag” comment above proves I absolutely adore the truth!
You’re not going to vote for McBerry because I’m childish.
Yup. That’s mature. Way too mature for me.
And all exchanges on Peach Pundit are serious, classy, dignified, and loaded with vocabulary builders from the back of Reader’s Digest.
Your amazing powers of intellect are overwhelming. I’m going to cry myself into oblivion as a complete failure and mend my childish ways.
And you are so right. I mean come on. Getting all pissy about children butchered at 26 weeks gestation and dissected at Emory is so over the top.
Can you guys open a Peach Pundit kindergarten so I can feel more at home?
No Jenny, I’m not voting for McBerry not because you are childish but because I have yet to hear you talk as passionately about your candidate as you do about your hatred for the Ox camp. If the McBerry campaign head has this much time on her hands and is spending it bashing the competition instead of sharing with people reasons to vote for her candidate, then something is wrong. Come on, we all know that you are witty and capable of biting sarcasm, but your acerbic wit isn’t enough to make me back McBerry. Sorry! And regarding the abortion rant – I’ve determined that getting riled about abortion is senseless, people who are pro-life are going to stay that way, and the same goes for those who are pro-choice – just take a deep breath and enjoy your family vacation.
“Ms Undecided”,
Sorry, but I’m with Jenny on this one.
NOT “getting riled” about abortion is about as senseless as NOT getting riled over Hitler, Stalin, or anyone else you care to throw in there. We’re not talking about little puppies here… we’re talking about babies! I would bet that you probably got “riled” up over Vick’s dog fighting… like everyone else in the country. But yet we don’t think it’s sensible to get riled up about the murder of babies??
As for “pro-choice’ers” not changing… I beg to differ. Case in point would be Zell Miller or Mitt Romney. People do change their mind when others engage them and don’t back down from the truth. It doesn’t have to be vitriolic or mean… but at the same time we can’t treat this as a “you believe one thing I believe another” topic – it’s too crucial and important to who we are as a state and nation.
IW – great responses. I don’t think I was clear in my explanation because my comments were directed at Jenny. The operative sentence from your response is, “People do change their mind when others engage them and don’t back down from the truth”. I agree that she certainly didn’t back down from the truth, but she did little to engage, what she essentially did was rant, what she affirms by saying she “threw up all over this thread”. Ranting and raving does little to make people want to listen and take seriously the message of the speaker. My point is that because abortion is such a heated, emotionally charged issue, people don’t typically engage one another, they rant, which does little to further the discussion. This whole day has reminded me of my high school years on the debate team (ah yes, I was that geek!) everyone has a passionate opinion about something, but very few are doing a good job explaining their point because everyone is just yelling. My whole point in commenting at all today was simply stating what you and many others have said today – this “Just Jenny” was unprofessional, immature and harmful to the McBerry campaign. Jenny is the head of the campaign, not a JV cheerleader – there needs to be more substance and less silliness involved.
bill – i hope you appreciate my transparency by using my full name on all posts regardless of who i call an idiot
Seth,
I sincerely do appreciate your full transparency.
“transparency,” like Obama’s birth certificate
THREAD JACK!
I still can’t get over the fact that campaign directors and other various paid members of campaigns are getting into Internet fights via YouTube videos and comments on PP posts. Is any of this professional? Does any of it help your candidate? This is all truly childish.
Just Jenny is straight forward, direct and completely owned by Jenny. There is no subterfuge.
It compares nicely with the high production value campaign commercials that are about everything but what’s important. Hired voice, slick graphics, images of children, news headlines, serious looking young people gathered around a serious looking candidate.
Childish? Juvenile? Maybe. But wait until we see the paid media next year to judge. I’m thinking Jenny will do ok. Anyone know who will be doing media for Oxendine?
Of course, if it were coming directly from the candidate, that would be even better.
Wow. Some folks have waay too much time on thier hands…
Ray McBerry might be considered a solid candidate if his campaign director wasn’t starting the worst Peach Pundit brawl in recent history.
Just one more reason to go with the man with the most experience, proven leadership and best record.
DEAL. REAL.
Yup. Let’s put a man who desperately needs to retire into the Governor’s office when we are in the darkest days of federal socialism ever. He did such a great job of turning back the tide of evil in Washington, he’s perfect for Atlanta.
Uh, Huh.
How much Kool-Aid do you have over there?
Nathan Deal is the only real choice.
Hi Jenny (and others),
Let me share a few thoughts. I think your posting video’s as a tactic is brilliant. If someone or a campaign does something silly, I think it is fine for you to talk about it. I think you are obviously a very intelligent woman.
As an intelligent woman, you should listen objectively and attentively when people without an axe to grind offers advice, if you think that their advice has any merit. You are associated with the McBerry campaign and vise versa. Your actions and comments reflect on him and his campaign. His attitude of not addressing this issue with you reflects on him. The voters of Georgia may question his inaction on this matter. I’m not saying he should fire you. I am saying you should discuss it. You wanted to know if the term Nazi is overbearing and harsh. It is.
You should be able to make your points without name calling. You should spend more time talking about what Ray wants to accomplish and less on how evil the OX is. The more serious you are about presenting a professional campaign, the more serious the voters will take you. You can assume that PP is just locker room talk, but things have a way of getting out of PP and into other political circles public if the topic is right. If you stay happy go lucky, you will be looking at each other a year from today and will be able to say, “at least we had fun and spoke our mind.”
Doug Grammer (for those who aren’t keeping up.)
Doug (and others),
You are associated with the McBerry campaign and vise versa. Your actions and comments reflect on him and his campaign.
What you folks just ain’t gettin’ is that the McBerry campaign is just like the Just Jenny videos: A shock to the system.
Whether it is Ray ripping on the status quo of Republican politicians and their failure to adhere to the basic principles they campaigned on, or it is Ray declaring that Georgia should act in sovereign ways and tell the federal government to shove it, it is no different from the microcosm of what Jenny covers in her videos.
I’m not a big supporter of McBerry, but that’s a holdover from the flagger days.
I am a big supporter of Jenny, though…and Jenny hasn’t spent any time in the so-called “trenches” of the Republican Party for years and years playing the stupid party political games that too many people waste time playing. She’s a fresh face, unafraid of speaking what she believes to be the truth, AND she is unafraid of sticking her neck out. That’s more than I can say for a LOT of people.
You may think it’s all “childish.” But, really, WHAT is more childish than that past dumbass of a President we had who said (shortly after winning reelection in 2004) “I’ve earned a lot of political capital, and I’m going to use it.”
And then he and the Republican-controlled Congress proceed to childishly engage in every single act of personal indulgement of spending us into oblivion, along with their intrusion into a states’ right issue (Terri Schiavo incident), and ignore the principles they campaigned on.
I’ll take “childish fun” over corrupt politicians ANY freaking day of the week. I doubt ANY of you who put Jenny down could tell the difference between a corrupt person and an honest one.
And (except for you, Doug) the clear manner in which you all post (under aliases) pretty much demonstrates you’re as dishonest as the dishonest politicans you so faithfully elected so many times before now…and, will continue to elect.
Bill,
The better Jenny and Ray run the campaign, the better his chances of making it into the state senate or house in 2012. Just my assesment and trying to give some real advice.
Wow. Thanks, Bill. You made me blush.
Shock to the system.
A high compliment.
And to the rest of you:
Ray and I aren’t together for a campaign. We are together to change Georgia. Period. By God’s grace we intend to bring Georgia back into individual life and liberty, no matter who is in the Governor’s Mansion. We are bringing all the Georgians together are sick of the nasty disgusting corrupt political establishment and are ready to give it a colonic with a fire hose.
And that’s a promise. And that’s Just Jenny.
Somehow I missed this comment as I was going through.
Well, I appreciate your feedback. Thank you.
BTW,
There is a difference between calling someone a “soup Nazi” in a comedy on TV and calling a group of people supporting a candidate for Governor “Nazis.”
GOPGeorgia-
Are you really this obtuse, or do you just play one on T.V.?
Jenny,
Perhaps I was wrong about you being able to make a point without name calling
GOP Georgia,
No, there really isn’t. If the word “Nazi” is so beholden to the era of the Hitler regime, then there IS no good use of it for today, whether in comedy or in politics.
Choose all manners in which it is wrongly used, or choose none.
“Nazi” usage Nazi.
Eh?
OK, that’s funny.
Jenny
You might find this interesting!
Avoiding Self-righteousness
The strong emotions surrounding the abortion issue may lead those on both sides of the issue into the sin of self-righteousness. Jesus was greatly offended by self-righteous religious people who thought they were better than those they considered “sinners.”
The Pharisees were a Jewish sect noted for their strict observance of the laws of God. Tax collectors were among the most despised people in Israel. As agents of the occupying Roman forces they often extorted excess taxes and were considered traitors to their people. That is why Jesus used a Pharisee and a tax collector to illustrate the sin of self-righteousness:
Then [Jesus] told this story to some who boasted of their virtue and scorned everyone else: “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a proud, self-righteous Pharisee, and the other a cheating tax collector. The proud Pharisee ‘prayed’ this prayer: ‘Thank God, I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there! For I never cheat, I don’t commit adultery, I go without food twice a week, and I give to God a tenth of everything I earn.’ “But the corrupt tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed, but beat upon his chest in sorrow, exclaiming, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home forgiven! For the proud shall be humbled, but the humble shall be honored.” (TLB, Luke 18:9-14)
Further, Jesus told us to eliminate the sins in our own lives rather than passing judgment or looking down on others. For if we judge other people harshly, we will, in turn, be judged harshly by God:
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-2)
Christians have a responsibility to correct matters of wrongdoing among themselves (Matthew 18:15-17), but this should always be done fairly and with compassion. We are never to take upon ourselves the task of judgment that belongs to God alone (Hebrews 10:30, Romans 14:10-13, 1 Corinthians 4:5.)
As Christians, we need to remember that we are all sinners in God’s eyes (Romans 3:23), and that God loves all His children, even those who believe differently than we do (Matthew 5:43-48). We cannot afford to let our strong feelings on abortion issues blind us to Jesus’ commandment to “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:36-39).
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_abortion.htm
Once again, John, you publish a bunch of irrelevant crap.
Thanks for adding to the notion that Republicans are all about shoving some religious beliefs down people’s throats. Some of us are not, but with you and the crap you inspired below from Bill Greene, you just added to the burden.
Like SO many times before, you, again, miss the boat on logic and thread discussion.
John, for once I agree with you. I genuinely love and sympathize with those most threatened by the American eugenics agenda. And that’s why I fire away at the hypocrits in the pro-life “industry” which most people misunderstand and accuse me of alienating my “own kind.”
It is not the duty of civil law to show compassion. It is the duty of civil law to show justice. When one party is shown compassion, injustice is the unintended consequence to the other party. So it is in American civil law–the justice is securing God given individual life and liberty.
It is for the private sector, church government, family government and community to show compassion by supporting mothers.
Ummmm…”church government”? Do you mean the “church” or a “church-based government,” Jenny?
Church- not church based government. Church and civil government should stay separate. There are numerous examples in the Old Testament of the judgement God brought on His people when the King usurped the authority of the Priests.
The moral basis for both can be the same without blurring the lines of authority in the different spheres.
Jenny
You also might find this interesting!
What does the Bible say about abortion?
The Bible
Abortion, infanticide and child abandonment were permitted under Roman law at the time of Jesus1. Surprisingly, abortion is never mentioned in the Bible, despite the fact that it has been practiced throughout recorded human history. However, a number of Bible passages may be relevant. These verses and others are often cited as evidence that a fetus is truly a living human being, and deserving the same protection:
At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. (NIV, Luke 1:39-44)
Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (NAS, Jeremiah 1:4-5)
I will say to God: … “Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? (NIV, Job 10:2, 8-9)
Several other verses are cited as evidence that a fetus is not a living being. Life is equated with breath throughout the Bible, and this passage seems to suggest that a person is not living until he or she takes a first breath after birth:
The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)
This passage from Exodus seems to say that causing death to a fetus is not as serious a crime as causing death to a person:
“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)
A literal translation of the Hebrew of this passage would be “cause her offspring to be brought forth.” It is commonly thought that a miscarriage was meant, but it could mean an early birth where the child survived. Thus, this passage is cited both for and against abortion.
The Bible gives direct guidance on many topics, but not on abortion. None of the passages above (nor the many others often cited) were originally intended as statements about abortion, so any conclusions drawn from them represent opinions rather than Biblical evidence.
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_abortion.htm
Quote me some of the early Christian church theologians on abortion……
John, you might find this interesting:
The Bible Regards Abortion as Murder
What the Bible says are the responsibilities of civil authorities in upholding justice is a point being missed by some people in the pro-life movement in particular and by the public in general. The Bible commands the civil authorities to administer justice “upon him that doeth evil” (Rom.13:4).
If Christians do not report very clearly about what the Bible says is sin, then the people will never know how to repent. “For by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Rom.3:20).
The Bible has always regarded abortion – killing the child in the womb – as murder, a crime punishable by the death penalty. The grounds for this judgment are “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex.20:13); Child Sacrifice, “he shall surely be put to death” (Leviticus 20:1-5); and Exodus 21:22-23, where an example of abortion is found:
“If men strive, and hurt a women with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life” (Ex.21:22-23).
In Exodus 21: 22-23, the Bible sets forth a minimal case with larger implications for justice to be served by the civil authorities:
(1.) “If men strive… .”
The plural “men” is employed for the purpose of speaking indefinitely, because there might possibly be more than one person involved in causing injury.
(2.) “So that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow… .”
An example of a premature birth. Even if no injury results to either mother or child, the man who causes the “premature birth” is liable to be fined and, in fact, must be fined. The Bible strongly protects the pregnant mother and her child, so that every pregnant mother has a strong hedge of legal protection around her.
(3.) “And if mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life… .”
An example of accidental abortion. If the penalty for an “accidental abortion” is so severe, it’s obvious that a deliberately induced abortion is strongly forbidden. It is not necessary to have a separate ban on any form of deliberate abortion since the maximum penalty is served by this statute. If man through his own reckless actions, unintentionally hurts a pregnant mother and causes her to abort a child, he must suffer the death penalty. How much more so for any person who intentionally induces an abortion?
(4.) “if any mischief follow… give life for life.”
The Bible strongly protects human life from the moment of conception. With the phrase “if any mischief follow,” the child has equal protection under the law from the moment of conception “life for life.”
God does not make exceptions that tolerate injury to any pregnant mother, or any child in the womb. In fact CURSES “come upon” and “overtake” nations that refuse to administer justice (Deut. 28:15).
If God does not tolerate exceptions to the administration of justice concerning murder by abortion, then neither should His people.
http://www.covenantnews.com/cspa990830.htm
John,
You also might find this interesting!
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT…
ABORTION?
Of all the issues in our culture today, surely abortion is one of the most volatile. Perhaps no other issue has raised so much debate and anguish, plus time spent by various interested parties to educate to public to their views on it. In the midst of such a controversial issue, many simply throw up their hands and vow to stay out of it altogether. In the name of freedom and under the guise of “it isn’t my business” many choose to look the other way from this troubling issue, leaving the decision in the hand of lawmakers, doctors, and pregnant woman. Although there are many different issues concerning abortion, the following is designed to focus on what the Bible says about abortion, and the consequences thereof.
DOES GOD CARE?
What does God say about abortion? Do the millions of abortions that have taken place in this land bother Him? Is a fetus a “real person” in the eyes of God? If so, where does that leave us? If an unborn life is truly just a mere mass of fetal tissue to God, we should want to know. If He considers the life of the woman more important than her unborn child, we should want to know. And if He does consider that unborn life a “real person”, and just as important as the life of the mother that bears it, we most certainly should want to know. After all, we are all accountable to God not only for our individual lives, but also as a generation and a nation.
THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Throughout the Bible God has plenty to say about the taking of an innocent life. Most people in our nation, though they may not be familiar with all of the Ten Commandments, know that “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is listed there somewhere. The word “kill” in this instance, specifically refers to “murder”–a premeditated and deliberate act of taking someone’s life. It is different than other forms of taking a life, which could be accidental, or in self-defense. God has different laws regarding different sorts of death. But He continually opposes and speaks against murder, especially murder of the innocent.
Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land and atonement cannot be made for the land on which the blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live. Numbers 35:33-34
God’s judgement against the killing of an innocent life grows out of His love for humankind. The crime of murder is not only an offense against the sanctity of life, it is a pollutant upon the very land we live. God wants to spare us of the variety of ways this pollution is manifested. When the land becomes defiled with sin, people cry out “where is God?” yet they refuse to take responsibility for breaking His laws which were only given to us for our protection and good. Each sin that we commit is not merely an isolated incident, but will set off a chain reaction of other sins if not dealt with. Since the legalization of abortion for instance, child abuse has increased over 1000%. This is the exact opposite of what those who legalized abortion thought it would do since it was assumed that only children who were initially unwanted were abused.
In Psalm 106 God speaks specifically against killing innocent children and babies. He says of His people: They mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshipped their idols which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughter to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan and the land was desecrated by their blood.
Today we may scoff, or wonder in disbelief how anyone, especially someone who claimed to follow God, could sacrifice their child to an idol or a demon. Yet, an idol is anything that we worship before God. Today, children are sacrificed to the idols of selfishness, convenience, “freedom,” and ambition–sacrificed to the very demonic powers that are behind such idols. Times really haven’t changed that much. Human nature hasn’t changed, nor has Satan’s schemes against that which God considered so precious that He died to redeem it–human life.
WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN?
One may argue here that they agree that it is wrong to murder, but they still don’t see how a fetus necessarily qualifies as a human being. Perhaps God doesn’t feel the same way about a very young fetus, as He does an older fetus, a newborn, or a 50-year-old. It may be a different issue altogether with Him. Does the Bible say anything specifically about unborn children?
In Exodus 21:22 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!
It has been stated If the womb had windows, there would be no abortion. As humans, we are not omnipresent and cannot know the full scope of what each human life is worth. We cannot dwell in the womb with a fetus, nor can we see it as it matures. But God can.
A SCIENTIFIC VIEW
Just 18 days after conception, the baby’s heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain. Babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb as young as 20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is necessary to make the baby a grown human being is already there from the moment of conception. All it needs is time to mature.
Former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated “We now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing.” Though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings. Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small?
“In the tiny, almost invisible thirty two cell blastocyst–in that one gram or so of tissue–there is a physical potential and moral destiny unparalleled in our universe. Next to it, a gram of plutonium is a triviality: plutonium cannot compose a symphony, cannot cure cancer, cannot plan our course to the stars”. -Bernard Nathanson, M.D. and former abortionist-
A SPIRITUAL VIEW
God said to the prophet Jeremiah, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 God knew this man before he was born. As he was forming in his mother’s womb God gave him his personality, talents, and temperament. If his mother had gotten an abortion, the “fetal tissue” she aborted would have been a real person named Jeremiah; a mighty prophet of God and the gift of God’s voice to the nations, though she would never have known.
The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV
Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14
The above verses are only a sampling of the many Biblical references we find to life inside the mother’s womb. From them, it is clear that life begins when God creates it, not at some later point in time when it has grown to look like a newborn. God does not judge things according to their stage of development the way humans tend to. According to the above passages, even the tiniest embryo is the subject of His love and care. God sees each of our lives in the realm of our total existence, whether we are yet unborn, a young woman in the prime of her life, or an old man on his deathbed. He is patient with all of us, longing to bring each one of us into His maturity.
DO WE LOOK LIKE GOD?
To destroy innocent human life is a crime against God, and a rejection of the truth that we were made in His image. Everything in the universe belongs to Him anyway. The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world and ALL who live in it. Psalm 24:1 Our own lives are a precious gift given to us, but ultimately we belong to God! We are His possessions; we have merely been granted stewardship over our lives, talents, money, time, the earth we live on and the things we “own.” Though children pass through us they are not ours, anymore that we are property of our parents. Each of us has been given the gift of life and freedom, for which we are responsible and accountable to God. None of us has the right to deny that same gift to an unborn person. It is an honor to carry that powerful force of another life within our very bodies– a life made in the very image of God! (Genesis 5:1-2)
God is no respecter of persons. If He knew Jeremiah in the womb, He knew you too. Do you believe that God lovingly fashioned you and loves you dearly? Do you believe that He has had a plan for your life from the beginning of time? A plan that none other can fulfill in quite the same way you can? That you came to this earth “trailing clouds of glory?” Or do you believe in your heart that you were a mere “accident” and that God has no personal concern for you or your life? Is it easier to believe that you are just a highly evolved animal? An animal (especially an undeveloped one) may certainly be easier to dispose of. It seems somehow even “natural,” as the laws of nature lend themselves to the survival of the strong and the equipped. Yet it seems doubtful that even an animal would come up with a way to deliberately kill it’s unborn offspring.
Even the jackals offer their breasts to nurse their young, but my people have become heartless like ostriches in the desert. Lamentations 4:3
Oh, let us turn from our heartlessness and defend the sanctity of human life! Out of respect for God, let us offer mercy and compassion to every life around us, born or unborn. Let us be givers of life instead of takers of life.
AM I MY BROTHER’S KEEPER?
Every 20 seconds another baby is aborted in this country, yet very few seem to notice. Statistically, one out of every three of us will die by abortion, and we will never know what we lost in those lives. Our country goes along its way leaving lawmakers to decide how the carnage should continue. We’ve bought into the lie that those we dispose of are not real people. It is the same old lie that was used to keep slavery legal, and to exterminate masses of peoples in holocausts all over the world. We should be able to see through it by now, but as usual, most of us let circumstances and the current cultural climate dictate to us what is acceptable or not. Yet God tells us to: Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say “But we knew nothing of this,” does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Proverbs 24:11
In our society today we face a myriad of social problems as a result of our hypocrisy. Most of us have had to become somewhat doubleminded just to keep a vestige of sanity. We put warnings on cigarettes and alcohol, that their consumption is dangerous to an unborn child. Yet we deem it perfectly legal, even “responsible” for a mother to have a doctor poison that same child inside her, or rip it to shreds with a surgical instrument. We might charge a man who kills a pregnant woman with a double homicide, yet what if that woman was on her way to the abortion clinic to dispose of her baby anyway? Do we then charge him with a single homicide? Why do 21 states have legislation to delay a death sentence imposed against a pregnant woman who is guilty of a crime, until after she delivers her baby? If we really believed what we said about the unborn child being a mere blob of tissue, it would seem that no one would mind if that baby died along with the mother in the electric chair.
We wonder how respectable college kids can throw their newborn baby into a dumpster, yet what are we supposed to think? We’re the ones who told them that it is irresponsible to raise a child at their young age and that an “unwanted child” (which is a fallacy) is better off dead. They are not to blame as much as the media, the lawmakers, the abortion counselors, the doctors, and the voters. When a woman can have an abortion on a nine month old unborn child, and yet a week later be tried for murder if she disposed of the child outside the womb (which at that point, would seem to be a much easier and practical way to dispose of the baby) what are the young people of this nation supposed to think? Do we really have to wonder at the lack of respect for human life that we see around us?
Evil prevails when good men, in the name of freedom, do nothing. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil. I Peter 2:16 I Peter 2:16 Very few of us would argue that crack cocaine, or rape should be legal simply because people are going to do it anyway, yet that is the argument that is applied to abortion. As a nation, our morals and ethics vacillate between honor and convenience, integrity and greed. This doublemindedness has become a cancer eating away at the very heart of our nation.
History will speak of our abortion as a mark of the absolute decadence of our era. There will come a time when we will look back on abortion with the same shame we do now towards our evil treatment of the American Indians, and the blight of slavery. We wonder why history continues to repeat itself. It is because evil starts in little ways–it starts as a seemingly innocent thought in the heart of man. Sin always seems practical, necessary, or even “cute” in it’s initial stages. It is only in hindsight that we can see just how atrocious those massive exterminations were and how they went against the very core of what the United States was supposed to be. Yet, we have no right to condemn previous generations for the same deeds we commit today. Then, as now, the masses simply went along with whatever was the popular opinion. In regard to slavery, it was even argued that the government didn’t have a right to tell people whether they could own slaves or not… That it was a personal choice to be made and that freedom of choice is what our country is all about. Only in that case they forgot the rights of one whole people group. Sound familiar?
Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” “I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The Lord said. “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground which opened it’s mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.” Genesis 4:9-11
As a nation, we must repent for the heartlessness we have displayed to the most helpless members of our culture. Though God is merciful, He is also just. He cannot ignore the cries of the blood that has soaked our ground and stained our hands. We are bringing ourselves under a curse, but do not have the eyes to see it. We only see the fruit of that curse and we wonder what went wrong. Like Cain, our ears have become deafened to the cries of those we have murdered.
TRUE FREEDOM
There are too many of us who prefer to let the media do our thinking for us. Should we disagree, many of us are too intimidated to ever speak out with conviction. As we let time go by, our godly convictions begin to slip away and we become numb. Eventually, we may even support that which we had earlier condemned. This is called the “searing of a conscience.” It happened in Hitler’s Germany and it is happening today. How can we bring a dead conscience back to life? How can we know the difference between right and wrong? As was just established, we cannot merely “listen to our heart” and follow what seems best at the time. Some of the most horrifying deeds in history have been done by those who were following whatever moral code was most convenient at the time. Freedom is not doing whatever suits our fancy at the moment. That will only bring slavery and sorrow to our souls. True freedom is having the power to know what is right and to choose accordingly. But how can we choose, if we do not know? How can we obtain true freedom?
You shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free. John 8:32
We must cleanse our minds by the washing with the water through the WORD. (Ephesians 5:26) God’s WORD is the Bible–ancient, yet ageless and seething with life. It will literally clean our thinking and bring life to our sin-deadened minds so we can see what He sees and feel what He feels. It will reveal our very thoughts to ourselves.
For the WORD of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
Respect for God, His creation, and His Holy WORD, is the only way we will ever find true freedom. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. Proverbs 1:7 Wisdom and compassion cannot be found outside of God for He is wisdom and He is love. Long before heaven and earth were made, and long after they disappear, His WORD will still remain. On the Day of Judgement abortion and every other atrocity we have tried to justify will be shown for the evil it is. We must seek God now, while we have the time to do it! Today is the day of salvation.
It is not too late to repent and turn our hearts back to the Lord. We can bring healing and life to this land that we love if we will humble ourselves before God’s mighty right hand. If my people, who are called by my name, and humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. II Chronicles 7:14
GOD LOVES YOU!
If you are planning an abortion, please reconsider. Though your situation may seem hopeless, God will work something beautiful in your life if you trust and obey Him. Choosing to “remove” your problem will only create new ones. Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? Micah 6:7 You will have to bear the guilt of your abortion or else harden your heart to not feel guilty. God loves both you and your child very much, and if you feel incapable of raising him or her, there are thousands of couples who have waited years for the chance to adopt a baby. Though it may be difficult to give it away, you will have given it the greatest gift of all–life. As Mother Theresa put it so simply “love means to be willing to give until it hurts.” Give your child to a family that will truly love it. You can make the dreams of a childless couple come true… and you can bless the heart of God.
If you have already had an abortion, please do not feel that this was written only to bring you under guilt and condemnation. What is done is done and cannot be changed. God has your child in heaven with Him, and longs to forgive you if you ask Him to. Once God forgives a sin, He literally forgets it, and DOES NOT HOLD IT AGAINST YOU ANY LONGER! Please do not hold against yourself what God has forgotten. Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I, even I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Isaiah 43:18, 25. Receive His love, for He loves you just as much as the child you lost. He already took your sin and bore it upon Himself so you would not have to bear the punishment, which would be eternal separation from Him. He knows the agony you’ve gone through better than any other, for He was there too, with you. Open your life to Him and let Him give you a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of the spirit of despair. He will make you into an oak of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display his splendor. Isaiah 61:3
In conclusion, the words of God ring out as clearly now as they did over 3,000 years ago:
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your children may live, and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice and hold fast to him. Deuteronomy 30:19-20
http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=211
Bill,
Yours and JK’s discussion here only furthers my point that this is a religious/moral issue, and therefore one Government needs to stay the HADES away from.
Jeff,
I’m not into the “God-based politics” crap. My support of Jenny has to do with her personal convictions and her ability (and courage) to be able to speak out and not be cowed.
I don’t know where the EFF you got the idea that any of “my discussion” is related in ANY way to the religious bullsh*t that has infected the Republican Party for 20 some-odd years…but…I will chalk it up to the fact that you are entirely ignorant about many, many things due to your age and inexperience.
WHOOPS! So sorry…I missed what Jeff was responding to and which “Bill.”
(this new format SUCKS!)
yes it does
Jeff,
ALL laws are moral by nature. Newsflash: the government is in the business of promoting morality (whether moral or immoral) in every piece of legislation that it passes. So your argument that because it’s a “moral” issue doesn’t hold water. Sorry.
No, all criminal laws have to do is to promote unobtrusiveness. But since being unobtrusive is the moral way to be, you take that as a license to promote anything you care to call morality. It’s false logic, and when you use it you give those who have very different ideas on morality than you a license to use that false logic as well. And in the meantime the government just grows and grows.
Dash, prove to me that “being unobtrusive is the moral way to be” without using morals as a standard.
Dash, I wish that you could comprehend the lack of logic that you just exhibited. As Bill points out below… how can you set the standard for “unobtrusive” laws without using some moral standard? Sorry, can’t get there from here
Secondly, having a moral and just government does NOT mean that it’s open to debate as to who’s “morality” to use. Our founders set the standard with Bible and the Christian God – so that’s what our government should use. They didn’t use Buddha, Muhammad, etc… as their standard. They used the Bible for a reason… because it is the only true moral standard – all other standards restrict freedom and deny God-given rights to people (i.e. Islam, Atheism, etc…)
You can play dumb all you want, but we all understand the concept of not dumping in each other’s corn flakes. That’s unobtrusiveness. When you try to use the government to tell me how to eat my corn flakes instead of minding your own business, that’s government-enforced morality run amok. Just because it’s “immoral” to take a dump in my corn flakes does not mean that the immorality of it is the thing that justifies its illegality. It’s the sheer obtrusiveness of it that justifies its illegality. I understand that “all laws are based in morality” slogan that excuses you from allowing for any limits on government intrusion into our lives, but again, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Don’t whine to me because the party in power thinks it’s downright immoral for you to try to keep what you’ve earned and tries to use the power of government to set things straight. After all, all laws are based on morality, right? It’s just a question of which brand of overbearing morality can take control of the government at any given time. That’s the world you want, and you’ve got it. Enjoy.
IW
It looks like you are little confused!
You said
“They used the Bible for a reason… because it is the only true moral standard –“
The Bible
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-2)
Christians have a responsibility to correct matters of wrongdoing among themselves (Matthew 18:15-17), but this should always be done fairly and with compassion. We are never to take upon ourselves the task of judgment that belongs to God alone (Hebrews 10:30, Romans 14:10-13, 1 Corinthians 4:5.)
As Christians, we need to remember that we are all sinners in God’s eyes (Romans 3:23), and that God loves all His children, even those who believe differently than we do (Matthew 5:43-48). We cannot afford to let our strong feelings on abortion issues blind us to Jesus’ commandment to “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:36-39).
John,
It is you who are confused.
To him, the Bible has a definite meaning, and you are ignoring that. It means that he gets to live by the Grace of the New Testament and everyone else lives by the fire and brimstone of the Old.
Notice how these supposed Christians who quote Leviticus more than they quote John or Luke.
With the ease at which they throw around words like murder and such, they are nothing more than religious extremist who would gleefully bring civil war if it were possible to enforce their will.
Doug
I find my self agreeing a lot with you lately. Do we need a new party based on pragmatic logic?
Dash, prove to me that it’s wrong for me to dump in your corn flakes, without using morality.
Dash, prove to me that “sheer obtrusiveness” is wrong without using moral standards.
I don’t know John. I was hoping the GOP was still salavagable, but if they are willing to go backwards with the Ox here in Georgia, maybe not so much.
However, I did have an idea for a blog along those lines that I was pitching to Icarus, but he became impossibly busy and the idea petered out for now. He did mention you as a possible participant, IIRC.
John, by your logic, a Christian who takes his or her faith seriously could never be allowed to sit in a bench in the judicial branch of American government. “Judge not,” and all that.
Oh wait, maybe we didn’t get the whole thing: “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” That would be Jesus, in John 7:24. And how do we know what is “righteous” (ethically correct) judgment? I bet Jesus would answer that one pretty easily.
“Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:9
“Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.” Leviticus 19:15
I love the tolerance you exhibit, Doug.
Where have I ever exhibited tolerence?
Doug
Feel free to contact me about the idea at [email protected]
Will do a bit later, and maybe you can get Icarus on board
John,
I sent you your email, but watch your spam filter block it.
“Dash, prove to me that ‘sheer obtrusiveness’ is wrong without using moral standards.”
Tolerance of sheer obtrusiveness is anarchy. If I wanted you to leave my corn flakes alone in such a world, I would have to take matters into my own hands. And of course, if you want revenge for that second orifice for evacuating your bowels that I’ve created for you, then you’ll have to fashion your own remedy, because the law won’t help you any more than it would help me. Leaving each other alone and not endangering each others’ lives is the minimum required of our laws if we’re to have anything resembling civilization at all. Everything beyond that is open to debate, but that’s the common denominator that thumpers, nanny-statists, libertarians and peace-loving heathens can all agree on. That’s just pragmatism. If you still need a Venn diagram to see how this is at best a mere subset of what you call morality then I can’t help you.
Suddenly, I have an urging to stock-up on corn flakes and hoard them to keep them away from Dash and Bill G. since all they want to do is use them as people litter.
Dash, prove to me that anarchy is wrong, without using moral standards.
Prove to me that taking matters into your own hands is wrong, without using moral standards.
Prove to me that revenge is wrong, without using moral standards.
Prove to me that leaving each other alone is right, without using moral standards.
Prove to me that not endangering each others’ lives is right, without using moral standards.
Prove to me that pragmatism is right, without using moral standards.
Good luck with that.
You proceed from a false premise, oh, hypothetically two-puckered one. For present purposes I couldn’t care less whether anarchy and vigilantism are wrong, or whether letting others live their lives as they see fit is right. I only care that civilization is impossible unless there exists a government to enforce these principles. Your argument is essentially that the need to establish civilization to facilitate the possibility of lives worth living by modern standards is by definition the license to establish what many would consider a theocracy. Good luck with that argument outside your echo chamber.
Dash, that’s all very nice ducking and covering, but none of it answers the questions posed. You see, I don’t believe you when you say that you “couldn’t care less whether anarchy and vigilantism are wrong, or whether letting others live their lives as they see fit is right.” You DO care about those things; you DO believe that those things are wrong or right, thus your expression that you “care that civilization is impossible unless there exists a government to enforce these principles.” I mean, why would you care whether or not civilization is impossible? Prove to me that anarchy is wrong, without using moral standards.
You see, here’s what it comes down to (getting back to where this sub-thread came from): ALL laws are moral by nature, and the government is in the business of promoting morality (whether moral or immoral) in every piece of legislation that it passes. You responded to that statement by claiming that all criminal laws have to do is to promote unobtrusiveness, and that being unobtrusive is the moral way to be.
All I’m saying is: prove to me that “being unobtrusive is the moral way to be,” without using moral standards (since that would be a circular argument).
Thank you.
Bill-
This was excellent and very thorough. Do you mind if I put this on my websites: GeorgiaHLA, ProLifeUnity and Alovita?
I immensely appreciate you putting all of that together. Very thorough. Excellent.
Jenny, I have no idea what you’re asking about, but sure.
I HATE this new format.
If you’re talking about the “abortion and the Bible” stuff, make sure you quote the sources I listed.
The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV
“Bowels,” huh? I wasn’t aware that humans were conceived in the bowels of other humans. Must be taught in that “New Biology” I did not take in school.
Bill, the Hebrew word there that’s translated “bowels” in the KJV literally means “inward parts”. It’s used variously to mean, depending on context (Hebrew is like that), “internal organs,” “inward parts,” “bowels, intestines, belly,” “digestive organs,” “organs of procreation, womb,” “place of emotions or distress or love,” and “external belly”.
i wonder if any of this will affect mcberry’s supporter
Ox is just angry he didn’t think to post daily “Just Johnny” videos first. Or maybe his campaign “strategist” Jeff Breedlove wanted to do “Just Jeffy.”
Valerie, Ox does have a Youtube series entitled “Journeys With John”.
ooooh. Sounds riveting. Have to check those out. And what about, Jeffy?
Things like his newborn baby – which, oddly enough, was filmed in the delivery room, just hours after the birth.
Ewwww.
wow – this quickly got out of hand!
And _I_ was not responsible for it!
It sure would be nice if we could minimize a comment after we read it so we could “find” the new comments easier. BG’s comment above takes about 5 minutes just to scroll past.
Or how about ignoring people you do not want to read?
Fine. Don’t spare my feelings.
If God wanted you to have feelings, he would have told Bill Greene to give them to you.
Instead I ended up with an open mind and the sense to understand the difference between a modicum of enforced civility for the survival of the species and unbridled morality enforced at the point of a gun.
So I’ve got that going for me. Which is nice.
Gunga gulunga. Gunga, gunga gulunda.
Does that get you dates, Dash? That delicate balance you have achieved between Blah and Blah-blah?
No dates. Plenty of figs, though.
You’re so sweet, Icarus. No matter what all those people say about you when you’re not around.
Oh I do that but When the post is a mile long and I’m trying to find the “new” post, it’s tough.
Bill Greene are you saying if do not believe the exact same way you do we should have no rights under the Constitution?
Do we really have “rights” anymore? Besides the right to pay taxes?
You have the right to go to Gay Pride, wear nothing but green briefs, and dance very badly around poles in public.
But it wasn’t a God granted right. It’s a civil government granted “right.”
Ehhh…I hear the rules have changed in that IF you are going to wear “green briefs,” you have to do so with feathers stuck down the front and back of your briefs.
You don’t have to tell me twice.
Dash- I just clicked on your name for the first time, and it is now all coming together clearly for the first time. Please do me and Bill a favor, and take dance lessons, FIRST, so we can be “proud” of you.
Yes….I think I recall Jenny describing the dancers at the “Pride” (sic) event as being worse than Elaine from Seinfeld. So, dance lessons are in order, Dash.
The link changes on the daily.
Ummm… what?
I’m pretty sure my answer is no, but I’m not sure where the question came from…
Wow. Look what I missed.
For what it’s worth, I think the frequent use of the term Nazi and the related Fascist as a slur is unhelpful and diminishes the English language. Words are supposed to mean things. Ox’s supporters may be overbearing and entitled, but they are not Nazis. These are terms historically used by the left to slander the right (see Adorno’s Authoritarian Personality for example), and it does our side no good to legitimize their loose usage. That said, neither is it a gross scandalous offense. It has unfortunately become common practice these days, and I’m sure most people realize that Jenny was not suggesting Ox’s supporters were actual Capital N Nazis.
BTW, how come Jenny gets credit from Bill for speaking her mind, but I’m just a crank? Jenny, I think Bill has a little crush on you.
Huh. Good question, Red. Can you bake Focaccio bread from scratch and serve it with fresh mozarella cheese and EV olive oil?
I mean…you know…hard tack is good in a pinch, but those SCV MREs just don’t sound that appetizing.
ROFLMAO.
Oh, my goodness. That was SO FUNNY! SCV MREs.
Only a little crush? Gosh, that’s a bummer.
Well, ya know, Jenny…I’m at least somewhere in your Top Ten Fan Club of Just Jenny videos. Loyalty Is My Honor and I fight for the same front row seats every time you post a new one.
Has SpaceyG been sworn in yet?
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