The light-rail if built, would run from Norcross to the Gwinnett Arena in Duluth.
The action followed a report from HDR Engineering of Atlanta mapping out what light rail might look like in Gwinnett. Initial plans call for a 14-mile route with nine stops, including Gwinnett Place mall, the hub for the county’s bus transit system.
Plans also call for construction of a multimodal transfer station, probably in north DeKalb County, that would allow MARTA rail passengers to link up with the Gwinnett system, said Chuck Warbington, executive director for Gwinnett Village CID.
Overall construction cost, including right-of-way, would run just under $1 billion, and annual operating costs are estimated at about $25.5 million.
“This is not set in stone,” Warbington said. “This is a preliminary plan to provide a framework to look at.”
The marketing and ridership study should begin this summer. Following the three-month study, the project would be advanced for funding consideration under the Federal Transit Administration’s New Starts program. That initiative has $6.6 billion to assist local governments with transit projects through 2009.
The Gwinnett Forum website has some pictures of the proposed light rail line.
{ 33 comments }
Geez. Had they only thought of doing this 10 years ago, it would have been cheaper.
Oh, wait, they did.
Buzz, how do you feel about this? Good idea? I don’t live in Gwinnett, but my GF works in Norcross.
$1 billion is a heck of a lot of money but how do we ease traffic in that part of Gwinnett? I’m not sure.
I’ll be interested to see what this study says. Having the possibility that the CID might pay for some of this piques my interest.
From Norcross to Gwinnett Arena? Here’s a better photo of the proposed rail line.
Anyhoo, I live just above Norcross and it takes me about 15 minutes max to drive to a Gwinnett Gladiators game at the arena, so I’m not sure what the point of this is. Between waiting on a train and stopping at 9 points, you’d probably be looking at trip times several times as long as transit by car (Satellite Blvd. isn’t THAT congested). How many Moresberger developments are along the line?
My last job was in downtown Atlanta, and my commute was about 30 min each way (I tried MARTA at first, but gave up when I realized it averaged 60 min). My wife works in Alpharetta, and her commute time is about an hour. If you want to relieve congestion in the suburbs, how about SOME way of getting from east-to-west that doesn’t involve sitting through 500 red lights on Pleasant Hill or Sugarloaf? All these north-south proposals that are endlessly studied seem like wrist problems with a new pair of shoes.
This idea is a bad joke on the taxpayer.
So once again the rest of the state gets overlooked for metro Atlanta. I wonder if maybe Savannah or Columbus or maybe even Macon wouldn’t like to have a light rail system.
I live in the Atlanta area but I do get tired of them getting all of the money and projects while the rest of the state is left to fend for themselves.
Sorry I thought this was being built with the porkulus money. Ignore my ignorance and my post.
Well, we could add about ten more lanes to 85. That might ease some traffic. After all that doesn’t involve any of my tax money since I live in Dekalb……..right?
Steve, you may be exactly right about traffic today, but think about how little traffic there was 10 years ago and then think about how much more traffic there will be 10 years from now and then think about whether building it makes sense. Thinking about traffic today is what got us stuck in the mess that is Atlanta traffic.
For everyone that thinks $1BN is an expensive project for transportation, I’d like to point out that we spent almost a quarter billion dollars on one interchange in Gwinnett over the last couple of years (I-85@316).
So let’s all remember, roads are free, and rail is wasteful.
That’s all great, ByteMe… but please explain to me what an isolated trolley from Norcross to Duluth is supposed to accomplish? Expanding MARTA to the Gwinnett Place Mall area makes great sense (I’m actually in favor of this). The Lovejoy/Athens/etc regional light rail proposals come with awfully suspect numbers, but at least you can make THEORETICAL case for them. This pitch, however, doesn’t even make any sense on paper.
Whenever the word “rail” is mentioned, the leftists and populists automatically climb on board (figuratively) with no questions asked. The grassroots right is automatically opposed with no questions asked. Somewhere in the middle are the developer-owned elected officials, and upper-echelon grassroot folks like Buzz who enjoy being invited to their dinner events. Those guys “umm, err, oh, uh, err… are cautiously intrigued and, err, think it needs more study”.
The reality is that building an actually useful transit system would cost more money than anyone is willing to spend. So we fund endless “studies” of impractical or useless proposals that no one seriously believes should or would be built… as a way of stringing everyone along through the next election cycle.
Steve, the article is clear that it’s not an “isolated trolley from Norcross to Duluth”, that they want to link up to MARTA at Doraville (or some point north along that rail line).
I didn’t think the Lovejoy-Atlanta-Athens line was “light rail”, since the distances are not correct for “light rail”. Light rail makes sense over short runs, but you can’t get the speed and stability that you can get with heavy rail.
But, you’re right: I’m sick of “studies” that waste time and money.
The proposed “link up” is a “multimodal transfer station”. In other words, you’d hop on a bus from Norcross to north DeKalb. That’s fine and well, except we already have a bus system linking up to MARTA in north DeKalb. In fact, this bus system already covers the territory encompassed by this short-track trolley (and much more). So the question I am asking is how much improvement this $1 billion dollar price tag adds to these existing buses that seem roughly 10% full when I drive past them?
I’m not sure what is the exact definition of “light rail” over “heavy rail”, and some Google searching shows that it is a bit murky. Personally, I think if a commuter rail line is single-tracked, it’s “light” no matter how it’s constructed.
Hi – Just to clarify on the Light Rail vs. Heavy Rail definition – it is primarily a definition of vehicle type and performance requirements. To start, I’m only talking about non-Federal Railroad Administration compliant vehicles (i.e. vehicles that do not operate on freight rail tracks and the general railroad network without a waiver – these aren’t running on the same tracks as a freight train).
Heavy rail is what is described as a metro or subway. Current standard practice is completely grade separate ROW with a third rail propulsion system, automatic train signaling, high capacity services in 6-8 cars in length. This is what we have with MARTA in Atlanta. Other examples of modern HRT are Washington Metro, LA Subway, Miami Metro. Top revenue speeds are 90 MPH in BART out in the Bay Area and 70 MPH here in Atlanta. Station spacings are usually 1/2 mile in major destinations to 1-3 miles outside of destinations.
Light Rail is usually powered by overhead catenary (wires), can have grade crossings and operate in a variety of environments – exclusive ROW like Heavy Rail, shared corridor with roads (i.e. in its own lane along an arterial), and occasionally in-street. Streetcars and LRT can share tracks, maintenance facilities, etc usually quite easily and the main difference is in performance of the vehicle and services provided (they’re close cousins in other words). Current Modern US examples are DART in Dallas, MTA in Baltimore (the one that runs next to symphony, not the one that goes to DC), Houston, and LYNX Charlotte. Signaling systems can range from either full Automatic train control to complete driver operated like a bus. Top revenue service speeds on available models in service is generally 65 MPH (I think this is CHarlottes). Station spacings are usually closer together in activity centers, but then they can approach HRT distances. The main difference is that LRT does not require complete grade separation meaning it can run above ground next to traffic and doesn’t require aerial or tunnels in built up areas unless really required.
Remember, these are general definitions. There are exceptions and examples of different types of services and mixing of these technologies around the world and historic examples in the US (for example, Cleveland runs HRT and LRT vehicles on the same track and their HRT system is powered with overhead catenary – but this is a unique operation in the U.S. Similarly Amsterdam has LRT and Streetcars that use its HRT subway, but they have special vehicles for that purpose that can run on both Catenary and third rail).
If anyone wants some pictures or a discussion of some of the unique examples, let me know and I’ll post some links.
Oh and Byteme – you’re right. The Lovejoy/Griffin/Macon line (whatever we’re calling it now) is neither Heavy or Light Rail. Is is FRA compliant commuter /regional /passenger rail (whatever your term du jour – they’re all the same gd thing using the same track). This means that the Lovejoy/Griffin equipment would have to meet Federal Railroad Administration crash worthiness and track maintenance standards that MARTA does not since MARTA is not under the jurisdiction of the FRA. This FRA/non-FRA was a major point of this February’s kerfuffle between GDOT and the Beltline.
Steve, and I read “multimodal transfer station” as being kind of like 5 points station (or what they wanted to also include Amtrak when they were talking about one downtown) where you can pick up rail or bus or taxi from the same place. But maybe I’m wrong.
I seem to recall back in the day that Dekalb Commissioners had a hissy fit about “light rail” being used for part of the routes through the county, because it wasn’t “heavy rail” and they were having a whole inferiority complex over it. Not sure they’ve gotten smarter since that episode.
ByteMe: Perhaps someday there COULD be rail from Norcross to North DeKalb. Perhaps this COULD link up with and extend the northeast MARTA line (although I’m not sure that we’re talking about compatible types of track here). However, in this proposal the $1 billion track stops at Norcross… about halfway to that point. I have no idea what the costs would be to close the gap, and if getting right-of-ways would be feasible at all.
“Intermodal” means “more than one mode (of transportation)”. So maybe it’s buses, or vans, or helicopters, or placing passengers in a catapult and launching them into DeKalb with crash helmets on. But one way or the other, you’re going to need a non-rail transfer means for getting from one rail to the other. That would duplicate the existing near-empty buses which connect Gwinnett to Doraville. This is what I mean by asking questions.
The near empty buses are GCT route 10 which carries over 4,000 boardings a day. The reason for a one station MARTA extension to the north is that the MARTA line already extends across I-285 so a one station extensions to an area, oh, around Oak Cliff Road right at the DeKalb/Gwinnett line would be cheaper than building another rail bridge to carry LRT over I-285.
BTW – by your definition then of a multi-modal center, than all MARTA stations are multi-modal centers (bikes, buses, taxis, rail, and – usually, parking) as would any LRT station.
BTW – That 4,000 people is from Gwinnett County Transit.
Also, consider that those 4,000 people are carried on about 100 bus trips a day and Buford Highway carries between 20,000-30,000 vehicles per day. So 0.5% or of vehicles are carrying between 12-16% of all people traveling along the Buford (a rough estimate thinkign about 1.2 avg vehicle occupancy).
I’m not calling you a liar personally, but that comes out to 40 passengers per trip. I have NEVER seen a GCT bus with more than 4 or 5 passengers, and I’m not sure that there are even 40 seats on a bus.
Oops – you’re right.
CCT 10 (Cobb Parkway – Arts Center/Marietta) runs has over 4,000 passenger /day – GCT 10 has about 2,000. However, my general point that 98 bus trips a day (http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/departments/transportation/routes/10.pdf) represent less than 1% of vehicle traffic along Buford Highway by carry multiple times that in terms of people (even if it is between 6 – 8% roughly) is that there is a proven transit demand along the corridor for some type of transit service.
Numbers come from the Gwinnett County Transit and have to be audited as part of inclusion in the National Transit Database as reported to the Federal Transit Administration. Still, this works about to about 20 passengers / trip and is inclusive of the entire distance from Doraville Station to Gwinnett Place Mall. Gwinnett uses either 40′ New Flyer or Orion CNG buses for local service on the 10. These are 39-40 seat buses. Highest load point is at Doraville and then decreases as the buses move towards Gwinnett Place Mall. If you want to go see a Gwinnett Bus with passengers more than 5 passengers on it, go to Doraville between 6 AM and 8 AM and between 4 PM and 6 PM and just watch the number of people getting on and off the GCT 10.
I do apologize for getting my 10’s mixed up.
Steve: my understanding — as it seems is gt’s — is that MARTA was planning to go further north one or two more stops along the NE line as soon as Gwinnett lets them. Likely following Buford Hwy or Ptree Industrial, if they can get the right-of-way. No, there’s no way the tracks would be compatible, so that’s where “intermodal” might be come into play.
I like the crash helmet visual. Could almost make a good TV ad with that.
Cool… I actually favor MARTA expansion into Gwinnett, as that makes far more sense than spending 2 hours each way on wait-times and transfers. However, the same article linked above says that heavy rail expansion into Gwinnett would take 20 to 30 years to build, at a cost in the billions.
Also, you’re saying that the Gwinnett trolley track and the MARTA track would be incompatible… and the article states that this “intermodal transfer” hub would be located in north DeKalb. So how does this jive with possible MARTA expansion one way or the other?
Atlanta has a transit system. It’s funding model is dysfunctional, but it’s actually far better than most cities not named New York or Chicago. It could be far better for getting commuters off the roads, if it had more stops and extended out to where the commuters actually live.
We don’t do this because the investment would be huge, and there are retarded fears that it would bring “undesirable elements” (i.e. non-whites) to the suburbs. So instead, we endlessly fart around with half-measures that make no practical sense and whose costs are only “less huge”.
Conservatives need to get over the racial nonsense, and the denial that any infrastructure can be self-sustaining (roads aren’t). Liberals need to stop jumping all over any half-baked nonsense without question just because it has the word “rail” in it and they think they can sneak it in. At some point, metro area leadership is going to have to show actual leadership, rather than death by compromise. Just break ground on MARTA expansion and quit playing around.
I could care less, unless they are spending state tax dollars. Then I want my rail from Chattanooga to Atlanta.
Since the Gwinnett Village and Place Community CIDs funded the Study, the one thing I’m nor sure is getting out is that the LRT line their proposes would be compatible with the technology for a top end I-285 line across to Perimeter and Cumberland.
As for a MARTA referendum – MARTA could build either HRT, the LRT line proposed, or even the part of the commuter rail line (at least in Gwinnett and into Atlanta) – all it takes is the Gwinnett officials having the confidence from their constituents to call a MARTA referendum and signing the contract with MARTA. Only Gwinnett, Clayton, and Cobb have that option.
Finally, I’m of the understanding that physical construction times wouldn’t be that different between HRT and LRT, it is the funding behind the cash flow that makes the difference and accounts for much of the difference in construction.
Forget it. People in Gwinnett are overtaxed already and are not going to vote in Marta.
This ain’t as great as it seems. Because as you approach the speed of light rail you gain mass and change colors. And you always lose time parking your car, buying the ticket and waiting for the train. You’re always a little older when you get to your destination.
Watch it Game Fan, “gain mass and change colors” will offend the sensibilities of some though I don’t think that was the intent.
Metroplitan transit by and large serves commuters. An isolated Norcross-Gwinett Arena rail transit corridor lacks the commuters required to support such a system even if 100% of commuters used it.
Government “planning” gave us our current traffic woes.
Thankfully, the government “planners” are going to save the day now.
Hey, wait a minute…
Didn’t MARTA approve of vending machines being installed in their stations?
So, an increase in mass should certainly be expected as one moves from the parking lot to the train.
What the posters here by and large missed is that the rail line as well as helping the existing population will also serve as the tarnsportation infrastructure for future growth. Not unlike how the highways served as the basic infrastructure that provided ease of travel during past growth and drove where growth would go. We still expect 200-300 million more people to move into Gwinnett in the next 20 years and this allows us to plan for where those people can live and drive the development as opposed to just widening more roads and adding vehicular traffic as it is aknown fact that when you widen roads it brings more traffic not less. Studies have been done on this phenomenon documenting it. The rail line will also serve as a corridor for more jobs. When companies look to relocate one of the factors they look at is traffic and how easy it is to get to the proposed site. The rail line will ease commuting and bring jobs to the line mainly at the stations where office buildings would start being constructed. The more jobs we have here in Gwinnett the less people have to commute to distant jobs thus also reducing traffic on the existing roads.
We still expect 200-300 million more people to move into Gwinnett in the next 20 years
I think Nancy Pelosi has joined us.
Comments on this entry are closed.