80 comments

  1. Doug Deal says:

    Grift,

    I do not know what kind of math background you have, but this is a horrible idea.

    It is like teaching “Languages I” and incorporating Greek, Latin, French and Spanish just because they all use transitive verbs.

    Geonetry is a completely different beast than algrebra, and is completely different than trigonometry, which is completely different than Calculas.

    Geogia is a little too cocky at 47th, it looks like they want to reclaim 50th.

  2. John Konop says:

    Sonny Perdue Must Stop Kathy Cox

    Georgia’s State Superintendent of Schools, Kathy Cox, has imposed a dramatically different high school math curriculum without properly reviewing it with teachers and parents. She is replacing the traditional structure (Algebra I & II, Geometry, Trigonometry, and Calculus) with vaguely-titled Math 1, Math 2, and Math 3.

    There are currently four math tracks available to high school students. They vary in difficulty to accommodate a broad range of math abilities. Under Cox’s proposed change, freshmen, sophomores, and juniors will now only have two tracks (Math 1 and Advanced Math 1, Math 2 and Advanced Math 2…). Cox’s new mandate may be well intended-but the devil’s in the details.

    Lobbyist-Driven Education Policies

    http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/sonny-perdue-must-stop-kathy-cox

  3. drjay says:

    yes the traditional structure is working out so well for ga students –how dare we consider trying something new and innovative–i’m not sure it will work or is the right answer but i know my kids have a curriculum that is integrated (admittedly they are in elementary school) but there science and reading and math tend to be all tied together by a theme as they go through there variety of lessons–this seems similar even if it is related specifically to the math curriculum–its at least worth looking at–maybe even see if there are other alternatives that can be looked at as well

  4. John Konop says:

    The program failed in New York! The only winners are the publishing companies and politicians at the expense of kids and tax payers

    The books cost around $50 a student and $100 a teacher. If you talk to any math teacher they will tell you this program will drive the drop out rate up and hurt the gifted math students.

    Cherokee, Cobb and Fulton had a national ranked gifted math program which my son will be the last class. Kathy sell-out Cox replaced it with a failed program instead using what is working!

    Politicians like Kathy big government Cox is why the GOP has lost respect from fiscal conservatives who want less government!

  5. John Konop says:

    Problem #1: Cox punishes gifted and advanced kids

    As part of her new math program, Cox wants to stop giving gifted and advanced middle school math students the chance to earn high school credit in math (algebra). Currently, these advanced junior high courses (that Cox wants to eliminate) make Georgia students eligible for college math courses in their junior year, which helps them get placed in the top colleges.

    The Atlanta Journal Constitution reports that Cherokee County School Superintendent, Dr. Petruzielo, said this aspect of Cox’s new math program doesn’t make sense. “One of the things Cherokee County is proud of is the number of kids in middle school who take algebra. Next fall we will have ninth-graders in high school taking algebra for credit. Why not have seventh- and eighth-graders take algebra? And if they can pass the end of course test, why in the world would they not get credit?” In fact, 95% of Cherokee County’s junior high Algebra 1 students pass the Cox’s own, state-required, EOCT test.

    Problem #2: Students will suffer under unrealistic goals

    Cox spokesperson and Georgia’s math program manager Claire Pierce told me that a goal of the new math program is to have 85% of Georgia’s students graduate having completed the equivalent of Algebra II. I believe this goal makes the same mistake as President Bush’s unpopular No Child Left Behind (NCLB) program: not all high school students should prepare for college. As reported by the AJC, it is wildly unrealistic to expect that they should, and it damages the self-esteem of kids that would be better served by a vocational program.

    It’s more likely that 85% is the proportion of students she wants to buy new textbooks for, as a favor to her education-industry campaign donors.

    Problem #3: Unrealistic goals for the teachers

    I support high (yet realistic) expectations. But Kathy Cox’s unrealistic plan to graduate 85% of our high school students with the equivalent of Algebra II will destroy the morale of math teachers. Georgia’s high school classrooms face an explosion of immigrants with very poor English skills, pregnant teens, drug users, and kids with parents who don’t support academics.

    Finally, Cox needs to double check her math-if currently 44% of Georgia’s high school students drop out and only 29% (nationally) graduate with math proficiency (which doesn’t include Algebra II), how can she possibly meet her 85% goal? The only way is to hide watered-down standards behind the vaguely titled Math 1, 2, and 3.

    Problem #4: A rushed and careless policy

    Cherokee County’s Mark Smith says Cox’s new math program hasn’t been reviewed with any colleges except those within Georgia’s state system. Meaning no one knows if or how colleges from other states will accept it. “This is a sea change in the way registrars look at stuff,” Petruzielo said. “I’m not comfortable [with the new courses]. We wouldn’t want our kids to be at a disadvantage.”

    The state has also failed address how to handle students transferring into Georgia public high schools. Since the new curriculum is mandatory, advanced students transferring into our systems could be forced to sit through math classes they have already mastered. The same holds true for middle school students who have taken advanced math courses.

  6. drjay says:

    i have no opinion about this program one way or the other–i just know ga schools are mired below mediocrity–a nationally ranked this or that, here and there not w/standing-ga isnot exactly known for its public eduation, and i think cox should be looking at innovative ways to make things better–i would love to have the confidence in my local schools to consider them an option for their education

  7. drjay says:

    probably not–but sometimes it might make sense to scrap everything and start over depending on what sort of business you are talking about–in the case of an education curriculum have 4 new curriculums and 1 old one might not work out well at all-maybe it would, i am not an educator-but again i did not mean to sound overly argumentative or contraversial just noting that there appears to be much wrong w/ education in ga and i am open to finding new ways to do things

  8. drjay says:

    there are many things done in private schools that cannot or will not work in public ones the focuses are oftrn very different–the students are often very different, the parents are often very different, etc, etc, etc,…

  9. John Konop says:

    Is the problem the curriculums or the system?

    My wife is a teacher and they will tell you this standardized education via No Child Left Behind type programs like this is the same as pounding square pegs in round holes.

    First myth not every kid was meant to go to college. BTW will still need policeman, fireman, mechanics…….

    Second myth not everyone needs higher math ie lawyers, writers………..

    Third myth all kids learn the same.

    Forth myth teaching to the test makes better students.

    Fifth myths the kid’s only need math and English.

    I could go on and on…….

  10. Bill Simon says:

    Actually, I thought all the “children” had to do in this state to succeed was be able to recognize the colors “red” and “black”, spell them correctly, and be able to quote back the final scores of any Bulldawg football game ever played.

    No math needed for that ability.

  11. Doug Deal says:

    Bill,

    You are completely wrong on this. To be a success, a child has to be able to quote back the final score of any *WINNING* Bulldawg football game. Remembering loses, will get one expelled.

  12. Romegaguy says:

    I dont know which is scarier, GOPeach homeschooling her kids or Konop’s wife teaching other peoples kids…. = )

  13. John Konop says:

    Rome

    If you were a REAL MAN you would lay off the wife comments! As usual you have demonstrated a lack of adding any type of an intelligent remark!

    You are such a LITTLE BOY you even hide behind ROMEGUY why not tell us your real name?

    What are you sacred of?

    Do you pick on woman because you had problems with friends as a kid?

    Do you have problems with woman?

    Do you need some help from Dr. Ruth?

  14. John Konop says:

    Bill

    You think taking a shot at my wife demonstrates Rome’s man hood?

    Rome has no ability to argue any issue just cheap shots and talking points.

    If Rome is proud of attacking my wife why should he not tell us who he is?

    And if he attacks woman behind a hidden name, it is a legitimate question if he has some dysfunctional issues with women or men!

  15. Romegaguy says:

    That wasnt an attack on your wife John… notice the smiley face? It was humor probably a poor attempt at it, kinda like your poor attempt at running for Congress.

    I actually feel sorry for your wife as she has to put up with you.

  16. BubbaRich says:

    If true, John Konop’s story about this plan removing 7th graders from algebra is really, really bad.

    Otherwise, this plan seems to have the possibility of improving math education. And otherwise, John Konop’s statements are pretty stupid, too. He does seem to have a romantic 19th century notion about education and the work force. And I’m sure the rest of the country would like Georgia to keep providing uneducated people, but the modern world has a lot more opportunities for college-educated people than others, and I’ve recently heard here that, even here in Georgia, uneducated people won’t take jobs so we have to bring in illegal immigrants.

  17. John Konop says:

    Bubba

    Do you have any facts to support this failed program from New York would work any better than the rest of the failed No Child Left behind programs?

  18. Bill Simon says:

    John,

    Thjis is, word-for-word, what Rome said:” GOPeach homeschooling her kids or Konop’s wife teaching other peoples kids…. = ) “

    The = ) is the Internet sign (and has been for at least 15 years) of someone who is smiling at the end of a sentence….to show they are KIDDING about what they just said.

    It was NO attack, John, against your wife.

    If Robert Trim jumped on here and made some comment like that, then you would have justification because you know how he feels about everything concernign you.

    But, Rome has never met you…and you’ve never met him…so, Rome was just doing what’s called “joshing” or “joking” around with you.

  19. John Konop says:

    Rome has taken personal shots at me numerous times on this blog. Bad joke or not when he goes after my wife he crosses the line. And I was serious if Rome has sexuality issues he should seek help. His comments may demonstrate an anger issue with woman.

  20. EAVDad says:

    Working in a school and knowing a lot of folks at the DOE, I know a lot about the new math curriculum and here’s a few facts that other posters seem to have missed:

    1) Middle school students CAN take high school classes for credit if the system allows it.

    2) Colleges and Universities inside and outside of Georgia have been consulted and the new math classes will be accepted. Admissions directors are very used to seeing different types of classes on a transcript. That’s why there are course descriptors. This is a non-issue.

    3) Textbooks are bought in a regular cycle every five years. There is no profit to state with textbooks and if you look at Kathy Cox’s campaign disclosure, it’s clear she didn’t raise enough money to be “on the take” from anyone.

    4) 44 percent of students do not drop out. Konop is making the mistake of doing subtracting the graduation rate from 100 and coming up with the dropout rate. Wrong in so many ways. How?
    – The 56 percent graduation rate is calculated by Education Week and there are many flaws with their formula. It’s also based on 2004 data.
    – The graduation rate only counts students who graduated with a regular diploma in four years. It does not include special education diplomas, certificates of attendance (people who didn’t pass the graduation test), students who graduate in more than four years, etc.
    – Georgia’s grade 9-12 dropout rate is 4.1 percent.

    Yes, there are concerns about the new high school math curriculum and some of them are legitimate. I’m working with DOE to try to answer some of those questions for parents and students.

    However, this curriculum was vetted publicly for over a year in 2004 and 2005. It was developed by teachers and professors and national experts, not Kathy Cox. And the public had months to make comments and suggest changes.

    Where was Konop then? Looking for black helicopters?

  21. Bill Simon says:

    EAVDad,

    Don’t pooh-pooh black helicopters…they ARE there! I’ve heard them before!

    Of course…it WAS at night when I heard them flying overhead…

  22. John Konop says:

    EAVDad

    As a parent who has a kid in the gifted program in Cherokee you have miss-represented the program.

    The program works with kids starting at algebra 1 as a 7th grader. They are then given the opportunity to take college math at KSU as a junior as long as they take the proper math each year. The student receives college credit and applies to an university with the same math sequence taught at most major universities.

    This has resulted in the program being ranked top 20 in the COUNTRY! The current system eliminates all the sequences of math which kills the program. NO logical person would argue this math 123 with a failed history is better than the current system in Cobb, Cherokee and Fulton now for accelerated math students applying to top schools.

    Kathy Cox has taken money from text book companies and has made no secrete of her attentions of running for U.S. Congress. Also the text books are almost twice as much and you have not disclosed consulting fees and testing cost made by the same publishing companies for text book changes.

    I have talk to numerous math teachers and all have told me this program will drive the drop out rate off. Also you guys were already caught fudging your graduation rate which was posted on this site.

    I did lead a protest because you guys refused to grant credit to 7th graders last year. Because of the protest Czar Kathy Cox back down on punishing kids for excellence for one year but continued her destructive path of selling out kids for future ambitions.

    Finally Mr. Chapman a statistician and head of the Cherokee School Board noticed as I that Kathy Cox’s presentation was so riddled with satirical errors and miss-representations that it was shocking it was used to sell a new math program.

  23. Doug Deal says:

    EAVDad,

    I am against because it is a bad idea. I do not care who is on the take from whom. As someone who has actually taken high level math all the way through college, the classes are no abstract concepts to me that sound good on paper.

    From a practical example, Geometric (or Trigonometric) proofs are something that require a certain amount of day to day practice to get proficiency up tot he point where more complicated proofs can be attempted. It means focusing intently on them so that the brain thinks the way it needs to think in order to complete the problem.

    Under a system that disperses geometry (or trig) throughout 4 math classes, much of the time that could be used to learn progressively more difficult proofs (or techniques such as rotation and translation of axes in three dimensions) would be spent reminding children how to work proofs again.

    The system is as it is because there is very little in common between Geometry/Trig/Algebra/Calculus. Algebra is a slight exception in that basic algebraic manipulations are used to solve problems, but very little of the more advanced algebra is used.

    If this is such a good idea, we should eliminate American/World/Ancient history and just divide it up into random snippets. Perhaps we can even play baseball games in the middle of football season, since principles such as running are used in both.

    This is the most foolish educational idea since “homogenous grouping”.

  24. BubbaRich says:

    Okay, Konop, you’ll need to explain “satirical errors and miss-representations.” I don’t get the first one at all, although it sounds funny, and the second one is either a silly misspelling, or reveals your own issues against women.

    If the math program doesn’t allow advanced sequences like you say, then a smarter attitude would be to try to modify the program to allow an advanced course beginning in middle school.

  25. John Konop says:

    Doug

    I heard the same thing from the finance people that work for me. The system is death trap for the most advance math students and hurts kids better suited for vocational based educational or kids who have are weaker in math but stringer in English.

    I have had numerous conversations with Casey Cagle’s office as well as Chip Rogers. They could not explain how this program was not in complete contradiction of what they ran on in improving vocational training to lower the drop rate and letting the best students excel to help produce the top math and science students.

  26. BubbaRich says:

    Doug,

    You even grouped the subjects in a way that shows how related they are: geometry and trig, and algebra and calculus. Of course you also use algebra in geometry and trig, as you say, but you need to use EVERY bit of algebra in calculus.

    You would have a better analogy with history if, instead, you divided it up into subject areas, and presented those together, like “history of marriage” in the world, or “history of slavery,” or teaching particular wars as complete subjects and not dividing them up by country into different subjects.

    I don’t know if I like the curriculum, but the hysterical reaction against it is NOT hitting serious questions about it, except John Konop’s reference to middle school curricula.

    What math did you take in college?

  27. John Konop says:

    Bubba,

    Kathy Cox told Cherokee parents that our gifted kids in math were behind nationally. What she did not disclose is she was using statewide numbers with kids who did not have the same gifted program and the truth is Cherokee kids were ranked 12th in the nation who were in this gifted math program.

    The presentation was riddled with cherry picking numbers and using them on a macro level without disclosing she was not even comparing the same programs or using relevant numbers via county school district.

    I am sorry about the typos at times I am dyslexic.

  28. John Konop says:

    Bubba

    As a student who got straight A’s in statistics and took a year of research methods her presentation would have failed at any level! Also in the business world this would be similar to ENRON math.

    I did not know if Kathy Cox does not understand how to use statistics properly or it was on purpose. Why would you trust Cox or her staff on a new math program when they cannot use math correctly?

  29. Doug Deal says:

    Bubba,

    Algebra is used in Calc, but it requires a complete knowledge of algebra to understand how calculus works and to do things like simplify equations. One cannot co-currently learn algebra while learning calculus, it is like learning to jump before you have learned to even crawl.

  30. EAVDad says:

    John,

    I didn’t see the Cherokee County presentation, but I’ve seen others. Kathy Cox uses the statistics to show that our students are lagging behind the country — and the world — in math.

    Again, acceleration is a local decision. If Cherokee wanted to offer Math 1: Algebra/Geometry/Statistics to 7th graders, they could. It’s their call.

    I know you hate to think that your little geniuses might actually learn the same stuff as the poor plebs in “regular” classes. But that might actually happen.

    Anyway, I’m thru arguing with you. Your posts are so filled with half-truths, errors, overstatements and self-bombast that it’s like banging your head against a wall. Oh…and spelling and grammar errors. Lots of em. Over and out…

  31. John Konop says:

    EVAD

    You said

    “Kathy Cox uses the statistics to show that our students are lagging behind the country — and the world — in math.”

    Once again you just demonstrated my point how you and Kathy Cox distort the truth. The gifted math program in Cherokee county is not behind the world and country, the statewide system is that does use the Cherokee program. A logical person would use the program that works not a failed math program from New York.

    You said

    “Again, acceleration is a local decision. If Cherokee wanted to offer Math 1: Algebra/Geometry/Statistics to 7th graders, they could. It’s their call”

    Once again you do not point how a school district can implement two math programs at the same school with all scheduling issues? And if your math program is so superior why have the top private schools rejected it? They told my wife and I because they are not buying into a failed program from New York that does not match the University system.

    You said

    “I know you hate to think that your little geniuses might actually learn the same stuff as the poor plebs in “regular” classes. But that might actually happen”.

    The politically correct teaching to the middle sounds good, but most honest educators will tell you the one should teach to the proper level of the child.

    Also my son took the SAT as a 7th grader and I bet his score in math is better than you could do. Also most the kids in his gifted math class in Cherokee would make you and Kathy Cox look silly in math contest!

    You said

    “Anyway, I’m thru arguing with you. Your posts are so filled with half-truths, errors, overstatements and self-bombast that it’s like banging your head against a wall. Oh…and spelling and grammar errors. Lots of em. Over and out”…

    I own a finance company which is math oriented. What does it say about you that a dyslexic guy like me knows math better than you and has his own company?

  32. BubbaRich says:

    John, Doug:

    The DOE has this chart about HS math education program:
    http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/DMGetDocument.aspx/Vertical%20Alignment%20Math%20HS.doc?p=6CC6799F8C1371F62408D04C4CDCC1585294DB0CD00D98554A5E2AB1C31962A7&Type=D

    I can’t get a shorter link right now, but if that one doesn’t work you can see it at page:

    http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/ci_services.aspx?PageReq=CIServMath

    It seems like an eminently sensible math program. This program doesn’t include calculus specifically, although most of the elements of calculus are present. I assume this is the basic class sequence, I couldn’t find a similar outline for an advanced class sequence.

    What fault would either of you have with this particular math program? And I’m stipulating that there must be an advanced track or two available. I might use this outline to teach my own kids, although I’ll probably start it in 3rd grade.

    This math program looks far more desirable than continuing an artificial division of math into “subjects”. This will give the students the same tools in a much more logical and useful order, and they will be combined as necessary throughout the school career.

  33. John Konop says:

    Bubba

    Bubba

    If you read the four problems I posted you will see the issues. As I said I talk to math teachers who have told me the issues I pointed out have not been fully vetted out yet.

    As you can tell from the answers from EAVDad who works for Kathy Cox everything is vague with no concrete facts.

    • Problem #1: Cox punishes gifted and advanced kids

    As part of her new math program, Cox wants to stop giving gifted and advanced middle school math students the chance to earn high school credit in math (algebra). Currently, these advanced junior high courses (that Cox wants to eliminate) make Georgia students eligible for college math courses in their junior year, which helps them get placed in the top colleges.
    The Atlanta Journal Constitution reports that Cherokee County School Superintendent, Dr. Petruzielo, said this aspect of Cox’s new math program doesn’t make sense. “One of the things Cherokee County is proud of is the number of kids in middle school who take algebra. Next fall we will have ninth-graders in high school taking algebra for credit. Why not have seventh- and eighth-graders take algebra? And if they can pass the end of course test, why in the world would they not get credit?” In fact, 95% of Cherokee County’s junior high Algebra 1 students pass the Cox’s own, state-required, EOCT test.

    Problem #2: Students will suffer under unrealistic goals

    Cox spokesperson and Georgia’s math program manager Claire Pierce told me that a goal of the new math program is to have 85% of Georgia’s students graduate having completed the equivalent of Algebra II. I believe this goal makes the same mistake as President Bush’s unpopular No Child Left Behind (NCLB) program: not all high school students should prepare for college. As reported by the AJC, it is wildly unrealistic to expect that they should, and it damages the self-esteem of kids that would be better served by a vocational program.
    It’s more likely that 85% is the proportion of students she wants to buy new textbooks for, as a favor to her education-industry campaign donors.
    Problem #3: Unrealistic goals for the teachers

    I support high (yet realistic) expectations. But Kathy Cox’s unrealistic plan to graduate 85% of our high school students with the equivalent of Algebra II will destroy the morale of math teachers. Georgia’s high school classrooms face an explosion of immigrants with very poor English skills, pregnant teens, drug users, and kids with parents who don’t support academics.
    Finally, Cox needs to double check her math-if currently 44% of Georgia’s high school students drop out and only 29% (nationally) graduate with math proficiency (which doesn’t include Algebra II), how can she possibly meet her 85% goal? The only way is to hide watered-down standards behind the vaguely titled Math 1, 2, and 3.

    Problem #4: A rushed and careless policy

    Cherokee County’s Mark Smith says Cox’s new math program hasn’t been reviewed with any colleges except those within Georgia’s state system. Meaning no one knows if or how colleges from other states will accept it. “This is a sea change in the way registrars look at stuff,” Petruzielo said. “I’m not comfortable [with the new courses]. We wouldn’t want our kids to be at a disadvantage.”

    The state has also failed address how to handle students transferring into Georgia public high schools. Since the new curriculum is mandatory, advanced students transferring into our systems could be forced to sit through math classes they have already mastered. The same holds true for middle school students who have taken advanced math courses.

  34. Doug Deal says:

    Bubba,

    Which part of Caluclus is present? L’Hopital’s rule? Definition of derivative? Integration? Trapoazoid rule? Simpson’s Rule? Intermediate value theorem? Multiple Integration? Using integral tables? Definite Integrals? Higher (2 plus) order derivatives?

    I guess Tech students will be coming increasingly from out of state.

  35. BubbaRich says:

    John:

    You are contradicting yourself on this, and contradicting facts on other parts. Your elitist education talk seems to suggest you’re making the claim that Cobb County students are smarter than other Georgia students.

    For some reason you want to ignore things like:

    http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/DMGetDocument.aspx/GPS%20Math%20-%20Comparison%20of%20GPS%20QCC%20Course%20Content%20v12.3.07.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F633B963F6D7119FC670C67F655C4058858D3174274B5BC0E6&Type=D

    which makes the statement:

    The standards for middle school mathematics courses may be compacted to allow entry into high school level courses.

    so I’m not concerned about that, nor with students who take the class in middle school being forced to sit through the same class again. I am a little concerned with students coming from different school systems or worse, different states. I don’t think that’s insurmountable, but it’s a problem that cookie-cutter solutions could make much worse for individual students.

    The link I included in this post shows an extremely sensible math education curriculum that already has built in the ability to have an advanced, 3-year track, which would seem to allow a senior year for a college-level math course.

    So, your point #1 is complete fictional crap. Points #2 and #3 seem to be that some kids can’t learn algebra, for which you have no evidence. Point #4 is a complaint about the implementation of the program. I’m certainly not going to defend that in general, but this program is wide open with plenty of information for teachers and administrators to comment on.

    Textbook companies are an immense scam business, so I wouldn’t accept something just because it was proposed by a textbook company or a beneficiary of such. But I also wouldn’t reject any change in curriculum just because it was supporting a textbook company, or because it was suggested by a company or beneficiary of such. Evaluate it on its own merits. And on its merits in fact, not fictions like your #1, or likely fictions like your #2 and #3.

  36. John Konop says:

    Bubba,

    1) I live in Cherokee not Cobb

    2) I was only refereeing to the results of the gifted math program in Cherokee. I would bet Cobb and Fulton had similar results being they were the only counties using this gifted math program.

    3) The truth is people like me have options of putting kids in private schools when most cannot afford it. The reason I took my oldest out of private school was this excellent nationally ranked math program. This is one key reason why test scores in Cherokee for math gifted kids are much higher than the State.

    4) The reason I am speaking out is most people have not been as blessed as I am in making money and I do believe in equal opportunity not affirmative action. As I said my son was grandfathered into the successful program and my youngest is in a private school. How many people can afford 16k a year per child for high school?

    5) Bubba I never took algebra 2 myself and I am a CEO of a finance company. Most jobs do not require the need for algebra 2. Why do you think every kids needs to take algebra 2 to graduate high school or college?

    6) Any teacher will tell you putting kids in the wrong levels and classes are a major disruption problem and not fair to anyone. This program has only has two levels and most teachers will tell you that will create numerous issues.

    7) If the program is so great why did it fail in New York? Also why did the top private schools in Georgia reject it?

    8) Are you against letting our top math and science children work at pace designed toward their skills?

    9) Do you agree with Kathy Cox and her spokesman EAVDad that is best to take the top students in math and science and slow them down to make the other kids feel better?

    10) Do you think only the wealthy kids should get a real gifted math and science program?

    11) Do you think a kid who completed two years of college math in sequence at a university while in high school has a better chance at a top school or a kid who took math 123?

  37. BubbaRich says:

    So both of your kids just happen to be math talented? It’s not because they’ve had a good education and involved parents? Which part of the DNA has the math gene?

    Let me address the worst of your idiocies, though:

    5) “Algebra 2” is not a subject, it is a class in school. You probably could not do some of the more difficult finance work without an advanced algebra (and probably calculus) background. You would probably not even know what you couldn’t do.

    I wouldn’t trust you to determine what the “wrong level” is. In my opinion, it means that a student is insufficiently prepared. Reading over this program, if you pass the previous class, you should be sufficiently prepared for the next level.

    6. How many levels does the current math instruction program in Georgia public schools have?

    7. I have found no evidence that this program has failed in New York, nor do I have any facts that private schools in Georgia reject it or why. I suspect you don’t have many facts about that, either, but I’m willing to listen to what you have.

    8. No, I think students should be able to study math as fast as they are able. Practically, though, with parents like you not even being competent to teach the Algebra II level, we have to have regular classes they can take. This program seems to allow 2 or 3 accelerated programs, with college math programs fitting into it.

    9) Do you have ANY evidence of Kathy Cox or EAVDad saying that? I’ve only read you saying that here.

    10) Only wealthy kids are getting the program in Cherokee that you’re bragging about. Or why do you think Cherokee can offer a program like that?

    11) A kid can get at least one year of college match in the program, even if they do not take any college math in high school. They can take even more if the middle school opts to accelerate the middle school curriculum (as the program itself suggests) and teaches Math I in middle school. This program seems to have specific allowances for schools to do things like you suggest, just as they do, now.

  38. John Konop says:

    Bubba

    Do you understand how we use static pool analysis to understand credit performance? Can you explain how to do a valuation on a business by MCC code? Do you understand how debt to equity ratio works by MCC code?

    1) A logical person could see the current system had 6 levels not including general math if you could start algebra 1 in 7th grade.

    2) Static pool analysis is used to track credit performance which is combination of basic algebra, general math, statistics and logic. The same is true with valuations as well as concepts like debt to equity ratios.

    3) As far as actuaries that is highly paid skill person on staff that is used in many businesses. Accounting is based on the above math as well having the skills to learn the rules.

    4) I have worked for many high net worth individuals and they taught if you cannot explain how the deal works and how the money flows on a back of a napkin it more than likely an ENRON deal.

    5) How does college math fit in if they are not the same sequence of subjects?

    6) The fact is 7th graders were able to complete two years of high school math not one. That made kids eligible to complete two years of college math in high school which Cox eliminated.

    7) I never said only wealthy kids get the program. What I said is wealthy kids will have the option to go to private schools which have the same math sequence taught at universities.

    8) The New York State Education Department and the Board of Regents have instituted new assessments and graduation requirements in mathematics for all students beginning with the students that entered ninth grade in September 2001. For these students, the Sequential Math 1-2-3 curriculum has been replaced by a series of courses that will prepare them for the Math A Regents Exam in January of grade 10 and for the Math B Regents Exam in June of grade 11. Passing the Math A Regents Exam is a requirement for graduation for all students as well as earning three course credits in mathematics.

  39. John Konop says:

    Another big red flag is Kathy Cox has been a big supporter of No Child Left Behind one size fit all education bill that has failed but any measure. All this bill has done is drive cost of education up be a third per student and left kids behind.

  40. BubbaRich says:

    John:

    If Kathy Cox isn’t the President of the US or a congresscritter, her job is to implement NCLB as she is required by law. I don’t know that NCLB was even a bad idea, if it had been funded. Not funding it made local districts take things away from top students to give lower students a decent education, though.

    That said, what do you mean “she has been a big supporter?”

  41. drjay says:

    reaching back to my least favorite subjects–my guess is sine and cosine were introduced in alg 2–since they are more related to trig and i know my alg 3 class was called advanced algebra and trigonometry at my high school…

  42. John Konop says:

    Sorry Bubba Cox is the problem not the solution!

    Testimony of Kathy Cox
    U.S. House of Representatives,
    Committee on Education and the Workforce

    Georgia State Superintendent of Schools

    April 15, 2004

    Thank you. On behalf of Georgia’s 181 school districts, 80 thousand teachers, and 1.4 million students, I want to thank the Committee for this opportunity to share with you some of the wonderful things going on in our schools as a result of the No Child Left Behind Act.

    http://republicans.edlabor.house.gov/archive/hearings/108th/fc/nclbga041504/cox.htm

  43. Bill Simon says:

    Ah, yes, Trig it was.

    By the way, one does NOT need to know Trig in order to study Geometry. And, I have the gold-plated compass and protractor to prove it!

  44. BubbaRich says:

    John,

    Based on that hearing testimony (and http://nces.ed.gov/whatsnew/conferences/mis/2007/bios.asp ) she sounds like she thinks NCLB has some good ideas, and that she and the state of Georgia can make programs that meet the requirements of NCLB and that are good for Georgia kids.

    You haven’t posted anything against that but your lies about Cox shutting down the gifted math program.

    You also mentioned that not every kid needs that kind of education, but you just happen to have kids who are all gifted at math. You’ve got great luck!

    Doug seems to have abandoned your cause, or I’d’ve pointed out that I myself am a Tech student from out of state. I think I’ve met one or two Georgia natives in a fairly huge PhD program, so maybe the preparation isn’t as good as it was for me in a better state, Alabama.

  45. dragonfire says:

    Well, Mr. Snelgrove, I happen to know that in the future I will not have the slightest use for algebra, and I speak from experience.

    /Took Geometry, Algebra II, Trig, Pre-Calc, and Calculus in HS
    //Memory of those courses pretty limited. Hasn’t seemed to impact me too much as an adult.
    ///Tend to agree with Peggy Sue on this one.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091738/quotes

  46. John Konop says:

    Bubba

    If you think No Child Left Behind has not been a complete failure your head is in the sand or you have no kids.

    Did you ever learn deductive reasoning skills? How you cannot understand via her roll out of math 123 has eliminated the gifted math program blows my mind.

    I help you understand the issue again. This failed program from New York teaches to the middle. That means it hurts the gifted kids and kids that are more suited toward vocational skills. Also it hurts kids who have strong English skills and do not have strong math skills.

    Unlike you I am not a snob who thinks every kid need to go to college or be in a math related field. The person, who fixes my car, did my plumbing….. is a genius because I cannot. I also respect the work lawyers, writers, marketing people…. all contribute unlike you.

    After seeing Kath Cox’s presentation it is clear from anyone who has ever taking statistics that she does not understand math.

    As I said I can afford to opt out of the system. The problem is at 16k per kid a year most people cannot.

    As I said I will sponsor a math contest between Kathy Cox and my 8th grader or any kid in his math class. Is Kathy Cox smarter than an 8th grader?

  47. Doug Deal says:

    Bubba,

    I haven’t abandoned John’s cause; I just do not care about the same objections to this program as he does.

    I do not think something is wrong because of who proposes it that is the problem I have with Democrats and Republicans who demonize every one of the other’s proposals for no other reason than who the author is.

    My problem is that I have taken these advanced math classes, and it is not so easy to shift out of one and into another and back. One week on trig, one of geometry, one on algebra, etc may be good for introducing concepts in order to perform well on a test that examines basic principles, but it is not conducive to critical thinking in the subject.

    Take your PhD, as an example. How would it work if you did it part time, working 2-5 hours a week spread out over 20 years? You would forget too much of the basic understand by the time you were done to have full understanding of the complicated issues.

    It is the same reason why immersion in a foreign language is the only real way to learn fluency. 3 hours a week doesn’t cut it.

    Personally, for me and my son, it will not matter what Georgia teaches, as I am pretty sure that I can teach him mathematics and science (and probably history and social studies) better than someone with a degree in education, and my wife used to be an English teacher with an actual degree in English. Together, we should be able to supplement anything he gets from whatever school he goes to.

    Now, out of curiosity, in what subject are you perusing a PhD? I was a physics major turned Chemical Engineer at tech, but stopped at a bachelor’s.

  48. drjay says:

    i don’t think its that we use or don’t use trig on a daily basis or not–i get what you are saying about a vocational track if you plan to be a tradesman–but for any college bound student the basics learned in “higher math” are as much about learning how to learn and using logic and reason as anything and not as much about being able to plot an ellipse on a cartesian graph while you ply your chosen profession

  49. John Konop says:

    Once again Kathy Cox caught using creative math!

    ….I don’t think anyone believes the often-quoted Georgia graduation rate of 65 percent in 2004 is based on the soundest data. (It does take into account where a student goes after leaving so schools aren’t penalized for transfers and other situations where the child not quit school altogether.) But the dropout rates reported by schools are often ridiculously low – 6 or 7 percent. What exactly happens to some kids who stop coming to school is unknown. They slip away without notice…..

    http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/education/entries/2006/03/17/dropout_crisis.html

  50. drjay says:

    i guess what i go back to is –i get the impression that there are problem w/ the schools in ga as a whole–i understand there are successes and and there and all that–but if what we’ve got is currently not working–why would you be so set on maintaining the status quo??

  51. John Konop says:

    drjay

    You are right and that is why teaching to the test No Child Left Behind education bill is such a failure.

    My point is choice of higher math should not be forced on kids to graduate. Also gifted kids should be able to move at a faster pace. And the math program should match the current University system unless they change.

  52. John Konop says:

    Drjay

    The gifted math program at Cherokee county is real success story why not expand the program?

    The biggest problem in education is parents. You cannot pass a law that mandates good parenting skills. Also this one size fit all No Child Left Behind program has made the problem worse by any measurement.

    We need the money focused on the local level and if the parents are not happy than get rid of the school board. If you talk to people involved in the systems they tell you my hands are tied via No Child Left Behind!

    Our constitution does not guarantee results. It was designed to give us a voice at the local level to solve problems like education. If Kathy Cox would do her job of using the best ideas and presenting them to other counties you would see better results. Why not let local counties make decisions instead of stuffing unfunded mandates at them?

  53. Bill Simon says:

    Dragonfire,

    Let’s say you’re a re-seller of black market drugs: Meth and pot.

    Pot costs you (as a reseller) $80 per ounce-bag, but you can re-sell it to the stoned, honky-white dudes for $150 per ounce-bag.

    If you gots $320 in your pocket, WITHOUT using “algebra”, tell me:

    If you spent ALL of your money on buying pot at the wholesale rate, and you could only find a couple of stoned-out honky white dudes stupid enough to buy 2 ounces of pot, how much money will you have left in your pocket after these two transactions?

    Remember, DON’T use algebra. You are forbidden to use algebra to figure this out.

  54. John Konop says:

    Bubba

    Hair-cut is a common term in finance. The Hair-cut is the amount of equity to debt. An 15% hair-cuts means you must put up 15% equity on your line.

    Now see if you can answer the question.

  55. Doug Deal says:

    Wouldn’t it depend on how much equity you have available. It does not matter if you get a better rate if you cannot meet the demands of equity.

    I say just use more gel and blow dry.

  56. John Konop says:

    It depends on the utilization of cash.

    1) First issue is the one you pointed out if you do not have the money the rate becomes less sensitive.
    2) If you have the money the question should always come back to ROI. If you can get a higher return on your equity than what you are paying for the debt you pay the points.
    Ironically this was the problem with the interest only home deals and step latters. That product was designed for a savvy investor who could make more on the money from the payment savings than paying principal. It was not a product for people to use as a way to buy a house you cannot afford.

    This is why as you know years ago I said this was a mistake ready to happen.

    Bush and company kept talking about record home ownership and I was talking an all time low on home equity.

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