That Ron Paul Supporter

An email was forwarded to me regarding that Ron Paul supporter. Here’s the relevant part you should know:

I was one of the 30+ Ron Paul supporters who attended the Cobb County GOP picnic. Despite Erick’s comment on Peachpundit.com, NONE OF US subscribe to the idea that Jews perpetrated the 9/11 terrorist attack. It was quite disappointing that a person such as Erick, who should portray the best values of the party, would slander our group. We were in fact infiltrated by two wierdo’s who wanted to hang around our table briefly. Every time I saw him coming, I went the other way. It was found out that this person had lurked on a Meetup.com and that’s how he found out about the event. He has been removed from the list. None of us knew him.

It’s good to know they don’t blame the Jews, but it seems like just about every conversation I get into with a Ron Paul supporter ends up devolving into something along the lines of them saying

58 comments

  1. liberator says:

    Dr Paul is the only candidate in either the GOP or democratic Party that respects the Constitution and limitations it places on federal power.

  2. Rick Day says:

    I sincerely hope you all continue to dismiss and underestimate the support Dr. Paul has.

    I think I’ll send him another hundred.

    PS: The fact the word ‘jew’ offends you says a lot about your POV, not observers of the obvious.

    How about…”Zionists” instead? Better? That is what my New York Jewish business partner in the Green party calls them.

  3. IndyInjun says:

    I support Dr. Paul to the hilt.

    He is the only GOP candidate capable of winning in 2008 and the only one who I can support, unless someone jumps in the fray willing to blast the Bush Administration for its ruinous policies.

    My stance toward the Jews is simple – if they are US citizens their allegiance should be to AMERICA FIRST. Alas, this is not the case with many of them. Second, no foreign power should dictate the policy of the USA. NONE! This is non anti Semitic, it is PRO AMERICA.

    Israel is to be greatly admired, but should never have veto-power over American interests.

    I find it AMAZING that folks who marched in lock step behind the worst POTUS of all time have any credibility left. Ron Paul was absolutely right about the war and foreign policy. His is the conservative position. The administration’s is totally corrupt.

    Ron Paul understands more about the insane economic policies of Washington than nearly anyone up there. Every time the Fed chairman goes before Congress, he dreads facing Paul’s pointed questioning.

    On a personal note, I have taken 6 years of abuse at the hands of GOP hacks who stood behind this lousy excuse of a President at the abandonment of every Republican and conservative principle. They have been proven demonstrably wrong. Now even the Washington GOP incumbents are turning on Bush, albeit entirely, inexcusably too late.

    The independents are more anti-Bush than even the Dems are. Therein lies the GOP problem and it is a fatal action once they ridicule, destroy, belittle, and discredit the ONE GOP candidate whom the independents trust.

  4. John Konop says:

    Indy

    You might find this interesting!

    From RON PAUL September 12, 2001 after the 9/11 attacks

    Yesterday, Americans were awakened to find ourselves in a war, attacked by barbarians who targeted innocent civilians. This despicable act reveals how deep-seated is the hatred that has driven this war.

    Though many Americans have just become aware of how deeply we are involved in this war, it has been going on for decades. We are obviously seen by the terrorists as an enemy.

    In war there is no more reprehensible act than for combatants to slaughter innocent civilian bystanders. This is what happened yesterday.

    If there is such a thing, a moral war is one that is only pursued in self-defense. Those who initiate aggression against others for the purpose of occupation or merely to invoke death and destruction are unforgivable and serve only to spread wanton killing.

    In our grief, we must remember our responsibilities. The Congress

  5. liberator says:

    Paul is right ie…If we give up our Constitutional Rights under the delusional guise of security the terrorists will have won. Paul is the only true conservative in this race. Brownback is a Fascist whose Anti-Liberty views are a threat to our rights.

  6. John Konop says:

    You might find this interesting this shows that Indy is right that voices like Erick are killing the GOP with independents via Republican pollster Matt Towery.

    TH-Anti-war Congressman John Murtha of Pennsylvania is prominent among some Democrats in his use of the

  7. IndyInjun says:

    Erick is a provocateur. When it comes to the Presidential race, he indeed seems to be embracing the status quo of the GOP despite its abject repudiation of Republican PRINCIPLES.

    On the other hand, Erick has been bluntly critical of the wave of GOP corruption on the congressional level, even going to extremes to expose it.

    I cannot brand him either as a hack or a reformer.

  8. dorian says:

    No offense, but if you think that this guy has a snowballs chance in hell of getting the nomination, much less the election, you are collectively living in a dream world. He has about as much chance of winning as I do, and I have not announced yet.

    I hate to burst your bubble Injun, but Ron Paul, like most libertarian ilk, have overly simplistic solutions to complex problems. I really wish life were like Leave it to Beaver, complete with black and white, but unfortnately reality drastically differs. The problem with your ‘principles’ are that they put you at such a disadvantage when you deal with folks who do not have any,

    These muslims, these terrorists, want us dead. They would want us just as dead if whether or not we are in Iraq, Afganistan, or anywhere else. Bush has certainly made his share of mistakes, but at least he has done something. It is easy to criticize someone when you are just sitting on your ass, typing on your little computer and blaming all our problems on the jews.

    Or, I’m sorry, did we do something to deserve having those airplanes driven into those buildings?

  9. Carpe Forem says:

    ….but Ron Paul, like most libertarian ilk, have overly simplistic solutions to complex problems.

    The fact is freedom and liberty is the solution for most complex problems. The complexity comes to bear when administrations try to get their will while trying to also maintain their power and control over others without them knowing it.

    The golden rule is quite simplistic, in that it allows neighbors to live peacebly side by side. Complexity would only be introduced if neighbors wished to force their will on one another while trying to maintain peace.

    Libertarian ilk know that they don’t have all the answers. However, what you can be assured of is, for them, freedom and liberty will always come first.

  10. IndyInjun says:

    Dorian,

    Better to be striving for a BETTER AMERICA than siding with the corrupt GOP or Dem parties. We are living in the second era of Robber Barons, with looting that shocks the senses. What I have seen eclipses Harding and Teapot Dome. The Dems have had NO TROUBLE at all finding legitimate rationales for their 300 investigations. Your powers-that-be in the GOP had NO INTEREST in all the fraud that the Inspector Generals were screaming about. The GOP fed and protected corruption on a level that may very well doom us all financially.

    The subprime loan mess is MUCH WORSE than being contained.

    The GOP in effect put people with all of the business accumen of a meth-addicted, HS drop-out, embezzling Waffle House cashier in charge of the nation’s finances. Only a Waffle House Cashier’s damage would be limited to the businesses cash intake while what these fraudsters have done may mean the loss of entire establishments, bankrupt entire states, and wreck pension plans.

    THESE are some of the outrages Ron Paul speaks out against.

    Instead of voting for men of REAL PRINCIPLES you expect me to line up behind GOP hacks who are leading us down the road to destruction.

    No thanks.

    The Democrats are better than you guys.

    As for the terrorists, they have found refuge in PAKISTAN, who was made an ally of the US by the godawful Bush. PAKISTAN has 35 to 50 city busting nukes. PAKISTAN is sheltering Osama Bin Laden. PAKISTAN’S chief nuke scientist sold technology to Libya, North Korea, and Iran, plus he met with Al Queda in Afghanistan. His punishment from Bush? …….he got to retire on his $10’s of millions in nuke smuggling funds. PAKISTAN is home to thousands of Medrassas teaching Jihad. PAKISTAN was host to the London Bombing plots.

    In short every single rationale for this idiotic war of revenge on Iraq is TRUE OF PAKISTAN, not Iraq.

    Conservative THINKERS are calling the Bush invasion of Iraq the worst Strategic blunder in US history.

    RON PAUL WAS OPPOSED FROM THE START.

  11. Bill Simon says:

    Erick also believes in the Constitution, just like Ron Paul.

    The difference is, Paul uses the right to free speech to put forth his ideas in a truthful manner.

    Erick just abuses it and makes himself out to be nothing much different from a screaming far left liberal.

    I don’t support Ron Paul for President (I’d support him over McCain or Rudy if Fred didn’t get the nomination), but, whether he has a snowball’s chance or not, he still has a right to run, and he’s got a helluva lot more guts than Erick does.

  12. liberator says:

    I would suggest to Dorian that it is the simplistic socialistic,authoritarian principles of the Democrats and Republicrats that have us in the mess we are in now! Freedom and Liberty is the only thing that can save us. Ron Paul is the only choice in the GOP Primary

  13. Jace Walden says:

    The fact that Erick, who runs the premier website for Republican activism (RedState), considers Paul’s message of liberty, limited government, capitalism, and non-interventionalism to be on the “fringe” of the GOP speaks volumes.

    The GOP and the Democratic Party should merge. They both stand for the same thing. More government. Less freedom.

  14. Donkey Kong says:

    Jace,

    Ron Paul’s message IS on the fringe of the GOP. Whether its on the fringe of conservatism is different. I’m not a Paul supporter because I think that the noninterventionist policies of Kirk/Weaver run into problems in today’s world. But like it or not, Paul IS on the fringe of the GOP.

  15. John Konop says:

    Dorian

    What Ron Paul said is our policy toward Israel has affect on the issues in the Middle East and terrorism. If you read the 9/11 report and heard any expert about the Middle East from scholars to the military this is not a debate issue.

    As I said I do not fully agree with Ron Paul in his solution for Iraq. Yet anyone who disputes his facts in the debate has not educated themselves on the issues in Iraq. It is no secrete our military presents in the region is an issue. The problem is how we stabilize the area without creating a regional civil war and more terrorist.

    The above were the warnings giving by the CIA and Military Intelligence before the war. The key report was not read by front runners and most lawmakers from both parties before voting for the war!

    As I said many of you fall into the Bush style argument of using the race card to kill debate like in the immigration issue.

  16. IndyInjun says:

    Well, JK, I strongly suspect that doing what it takes to WIN in Iraq – universal draft to MAN THE WAR and a 10% surtax TO PAY FOR IT would make 99.9% of GOPers pass out in a swoon.

    Their PATRIOTISM stops short of doing the must-do sacrifices to win.

    Dire will be our situation upon pulling out, as dependent as we be on ME oil, but Bush arrogantly and deceitfully started a war there against MANY WARNINGS.

    At the time Putin warned him specifically about our forcing an alliance with Pakistan. A LOT of folks who were REPUBLICANS warned him.

    He has Saddam’s pistol in his oval office drawer as a souvenir. I suspect he would have the noose too, if it were possible. This tells me all I need to know about George W. Bush.

    Impeachment was made for such as he.

    To see apologists for this monstrosity tarring a real patriot like Ron Paul is sickening. The GOP abandoned conservatism and we with it on the alter of power.

  17. John Konop says:

    Indy

    This is the plan I ran on.

    A Conservative Plan for Iraq

    Anyone who questions the lack of a realistic and comprehensive Iraq strategy is labeled a friend of fascism by the Republican leadership. House Majority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) recently said,

  18. IndyInjun says:

    John Konop

    You lost, but THAT will be how this ends up being resolved. In fact it is now desired U.S. Policy.

    The turkey fowling it up will be……Turkey.

    Ron Paul would not have degraded our great military in a decades long war of attrition that was not winnable. We would STILL have the military feared worldwide.

    As it now stands the Chinese fund our military and won’t do so counter to their own national interests. Ron Paul is too savvy financially to have let this madness develop.

    The GOP sold out America to the Chinese,yet talk boldly about keeping her supremacy.

  19. John Konop says:

    Indy

    Sadly you are right about Communist China. On this blog when I ran I made the point about Communist China many times. The strange part many who support this failed war strategy and call Americans unpatriotic for questioning our Iraq policy have no problem selling off our Country to Communist China!

  20. Inside_Man says:

    Konop,

    While your above information is top notch, the conclusions you draw regarding the viability of a partition suffer from deficient reasoning. The most likely scenario to result from the partition of Iraq is a greater destabilization of the region resulting from what would amount to a proxy war if not a general conflagration among Iraq and it’s neighbors. Iran, Turkey, Syria, and Saudi Arabia all have competing interests to maintain as well as sectarian and ethnic ties with the various constituent groups that make up the Iraqi state today; if that state collapses or is divided into anything less than a strong Federal entity (not to say that that is possible), then those states I listed will move into to fill the vacuum and assert their interests. Even now Turkey is prepared to undertake a large scale action against the Kurds, if need be. Under a partition scenario you will see Turks fighting Persians fighting Arabs, e&.

    Correct as well you are about the civil war currently raging there. A sober analysis of recent history will show that there are few possible outcomes from a situation like that: someone has to win decisively or the parties must bleed themselves into a stalemate where nothing can be gained from further fighting. Around 85% of the civil wars fought since 1945 have ended in outright victory for one party over another. The rest end in internationally imposed solutions or failed states. Our choices are few as well: we can leave or pick a side; either resulting in a tragedy. I would posit that there is no morality in choosing Shiite, Sunni, or Kurd over another, whomever we lend our direct support to will probably win, at great loss of life amongst the others.

    What we have, my friend, is a no-win situation. If we had done a very many things differently, it might not be this way, but I fear we cannot put Humpty Dumpty back together again. The wise conclusion then is to disengage from the region as best we can, diversify our energy sources like you stated, and learn a valuable lesson about the post-Cold War world and the nature of our “superpower”.

  21. I Am Jacks Post says:

    Good Lord, so much drama and vitriol over a candidate who is electoral equivalent of background noise.

    You guys need to take a breath, stop beating on the proprietor of this site, and go back to your all night RISK marathons.

    Relax people. You can be a good Libertarian and not be pissed off about it.

    Ok, start ripping on me . . . . now.

  22. GOPeach says:

    John Konop –

    I would want to say that I have heard that you were offended with a question that I asked about your faith on PP.

    I asked if you were a:

    A. A Christian
    B. A Jew
    C. A Jewish believer in Christ

    I think if you had made that clear in your congressional race, you may have faired a little better. When you are running for office in the South, folks want to know who they are electing.

    I meant not harm by asking that question. It is important to voters that you just answer the question. I do not think it matters which one you say that you are. It is not about being Jewish, it is about being honest! That’s all.

    Now I think you are very sharp and I have been a secret admirer. Stop blushing – I mean it. πŸ™‚

    Now – back to Ron Paul ….

    I am amazed how many people like him. I think he has potential but he who would have seen this coming? Incredible.

    I need to look at him a little closer …. hummmm.

  23. IndyInjun says:

    Somehow, no one was complaining about vitriol when real conservatives like me parted company with the GOP in 2002. My goodness, you would have thought I was a Ted Kennedy clone.

    Once singed by the GOP loyalists and hacks, it is hard to warm back up to them. Such alienation is the Bush Legacy and it remains to be seen whether the GOP will survive it. From the reactionary treatment of Dr. Paul, it seems that the GOP maintains its death-wish, which is soon to be granted.

    As posted above, I castigate not Erick, for he has shown signs of coming around, this ridiculous angle on Ron Paul notwithstanding.

  24. John Konop says:

    GoPeach

    I have never avoided the question. I am a Jews who attend and practices Christianity. This has never been a secret for anyone who asked or knows our family. My family I am also respect the Jewish holidays.

    Yet for you and Erick to support comments like this directed at me many times on his blog demonstrates more about you than my beliefs.

    Rpolitic // Jun 22, 2007 at 9:29 am

  25. drjay says:

    i realize election dynamics change–but their have been enough examples of “nobodies and also rans” winning nominations and even elections (carter comes to mind) that i suppose it never hurts to run if one feels led to do so…

  26. Inside_Man says:

    Konop,

    The awful conclusion drawn by my sources (CFR) for the above post was that we should sit pretty out in the desert far away from the cities, let the civil war play out, and use our continued presence to prevent direct intervention. I don’t know what we can do to stop the Turks, they have a real interest in stopping the Pershmerga from attacking them and preventing a Kurdistan. Their continued support and alignment with the west is WAY more important than what plays out in Iraq.

    Back to the domestic political argument, the GOP does have a death wish! We have 21 US Senate seats to defend in 2008 which when coupled with our leadership’s (party, state, federal, elected, non-elected) complete and utter failure to learn anything from past mistakes or 2006 is going to spell disaster unless we do something different. THIS is what happens when your party silences any internal debate, crushes dissent, and marches in lockstep….you become bereft of ideas and incapable of adaptation. A candidate of the GOP who respects the rule of law and thinks that the government is subject to strict limits as defined by the Constitution and everyone assumes he’s on the lunatic fringe?! Where did my party go?

    All you McCain, Guiliani, Thompson, and Romney supporters: what’s so great about your guy? Who cares how “Republican” or “conservative” they are if they trample your rights, bloat the government, bumble and bluster as an excuse for foreign policy, and feign insult when you question their motivations? I guess if they call it conservatism then that is good enough for you. I call it something entirely different – lying to yourselves.

    Care to defend yourselves?

  27. John Konop says:

    I do not think many would say I would defend the current GOP front runners. When asked I would say a lean somewhere between Duncan Hunter and Ron Paul. To give you an idea this is what I wrote about Saxby!

    Immigration and Trade

    Saxby Chambliss strongly supports an immigration policy that unfairly pits tax payer-subsidized immigrant labor against hard working American families.
    Saxby also does the bidding of his globalist, corporate masters by falsely claiming we need more unfair trade, more outsourcing (to countries like China and India), and more immigration to:

  28. drjay says:

    so are you going to challenge saxby???

    also to defend him a little bit–he was trying to work a compromise on immigration–sometimes you have to compromise to getthings done–but both he and isakson walkied away from it–basically killing it when it started to become to much to swallow…

  29. IndyInjun says:

    drjay,

    Neither JK nor I am falling for the one trick pony of the immigration deal and our senators early embrace of it. It got their constituents hopping mad, so they beat a hardly-courageous retreat.

    Their abandonment of conservatism has been long and repeated, as Konop cites.

    If the Dems offer up more than Vernon Jones, the seat is theirs.

    The question conservatives must ask is whether they want to fall in line behind Chambliss, who is an imposter as a conservative, and lose the US Senate seat.

  30. BB says:

    Konop’s statement on religion from the campaign website (2/3/06):

    Lives in Canton, Georgia
    Married to wife Dana for 14 years. They have 2 children.
    Family attends Sixes United Methodist Church in Canton

    rpolitic’s statement is true…Konop ran for Congress as a Methodist, no mention ever of being Jewish. Not that big a deal, except Konop keeps bringing it up.

  31. John Konop says:

    Bart

    Are you saying a person should have on their website A JEW who attends Sixes United Methodist Church in Canton

    Are you saying that Giuliani on his website should say a Catholic and is Italian?

    Are you saying Price needs to tell us if he is German, English…?

    We all know you made a big deal out of how you thought Mary Wilhite ran on her race (black). Which I am still have a hard time not seeing how thatdoes not sounds racist!

    So other than me telling my friends the last three chairmen

  32. IndyInjun says:

    This is exactly why we wind up with totally awful choices – actually no choice at all – like Bush v. Kerry.

    I was utterly dismayed when the Dems went for Kerry, for it was game,set, and match to the worst POTUS in American history.

    Those in power want it that way again.

  33. dorian says:

    Indy, I agree with your earlier post, the democrats are better. I actually think that having a republican president and a democratic congress is the perfect combination to have in federal government. I shudder to think of all the damage that the dems would do, if they weren’t having upteen thousand hearings on the president. Have they accomplished anything?

    On another subject, Erick is actually pretty good about commenting on his site, and a while ago one of the things he pointed out to me was that people who post on this site aren’t very ‘common’ (for lack of a better word.) Most of the people who post here (myself excluded), are generally more plugged into politics and the goings on of the state and national governments.

    I fancy myself as one of the common type of folks. My wife teaches. I belong to a couple of local fraternal organizations. I am more comfortable talking with people who work with their hands than with their minds. The only reason I mention that is because there is a huge, great, immensely large, etc. disconnect between Ron Paul and them. Honestly, most of them, and I asked around today, have no idea who he is and the few who did know only knew him in the context of “isn’t he that guy who don’t like the jews?”

    Now, he may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but his message isn’t reaching down, or at least not in my small corner of the world.

    And with all do respect to John, I have never met a politician who is in touch with his consitituents. They show up at Hardy’s at about 6 am to meet with the farmers before a contested election and are never seen nor heard from again. Politicians use polls when it is convenient for them and discard them with the same amount of ease.

  34. Carpe Forem says:

    My daughter and I watched Congressman Ron Paul on George Stephanopoulos. She noted how nice it was to have a candidate that talks “to you” instead of at you. She also noted how “real” he is, her her this means lacks hypocrisy… didn’t even allow his children to take out federal student loans because of his belief that government shouldn’t take from some and give to others without their consent. She’s 22 and she votes.

  35. IndyInjun says:

    Dorian,

    I concur totally. It is because I am of common folks, like to be with them, and want them protected from our godawful government that I even bother posting here.

    Its exactly that reason that I get incensed over the Fair????tax. It tricks working class folks by promising 100% of their paychecks, which is pretty damn seductive, when the actuality is that it increases the pressure on them by taxing government-created inflation that is exploding a LOT faster than their wages.

    It is hard, I know, for our folks to understand the ways of finance, how money is created, and how it impacts costs of living. Shoot most of ’em think that the government can print money, as it is doing, with no consequence, when its outcome – price increases all over – actually is why they are stressed to the max.

    Dr. Paul explains it well, and that is why we need to get working class folks to listen to him. If we keep up the wild ‘money printing’ necessitated by the GOP’s mad spending, the Chinese will own all in America and we will be indentured servants in our own land. Dr. Paul thinks it may be too late even now and I agree.

    Plain common sense comes across from listening to Ron Paul – something those other fakes cannot match.

    Jimmy Carter was at 1% in the polls in 1975, but won.

    All we have to do is what Dr. Paul’s supporters are doing – a true grassroots campaign built on whatever folks can contribute, by people meeting others and spreading the word that in 2008 there is a REAL alternative.

    How many times have we all lamented the state of affairs that leads to only lobbyist-controlled hacks being our ONLY choices? NOW we have someone who has practiced the principles that he preaches against the entrenched GOP establishment – a group that the American people is about to flush down the toilet of history.

    We simply cannot sit on our hands and let 2008 be yet another year of NO CHOICE, another term of the present day robber barons looting the country and handing us the bill in inflation created to bail out their chicanery, another 4 years of erosion of the Constitution, and another imperial POTUS like Bush.

    Anyone who has lamented the way things are headed should vote for Ron Paul for the simple reason that we have to have a clean break from the two party establishments that are the arms of the corporate manipulators.

    Dr. Paul has admitted that he is not the most charismatic figure.

    However, he is running.

    He is a man of PRINCIPLE.

    All of the others are liars, deceivers, and fakes who turned their backs on principles in favor of power.

  36. GOPeach says:

    John Konop-

    I think you should know that these days candidates will say ANYTHING to get elected.
    Agreed?

    Okay then —
    When someone asks you ( not your family) if you were a Jew or a Christian… it was not an attack , sweetheart, it was a simple question.

    I think Erick’s tone was mean.
    My tone was not mean. I was only asking you
    if you were a Christian or a Jew?

    My husband was raised in a Jewish home. The dear man speaks more Yiddish in our home than
    English. He writes notes to me in Yiddish …
    but when somone asks him if he is Jewish …
    he says, ” I am as much as a Christian as the Apostle Paul. ” πŸ™‚

    Meaning most all the writters of the New Testament were CHRISTIANS by Faith and
    Jews by birth.

    When the question is posed …
    it is asking… ” What is your FAITH ?”

    I am quite sure that Peter, James, John, Paul,
    Matthew, Luke, Mark, etc… were all born Jews
    but claimed to be Christians at Antioch where the
    Church was actually birthed.

    It’s like if someone asked you if you were an
    American or an Israeli?

    To be a Christian does not mean you have to give up Jewish Holidays, customs, food, music,
    etc…. none of the early Christians gave any of that up –

    The truth is John – we are Judeo-Christians as
    our faith came from the Jewish people.

  37. jsm says:

    GOPeach, our faith comes from God. I have nothing against Jewish tradition, but my faith didn’t come from Jewish people.

  38. Bill Simon says:

    jsm,

    I think Peach means that the Bible you likely rely on to guide your faith was written by Jewish folks, whether those who stuck with being Jewish all throughout their life (i.e., The writers of The Old Testament) OR those who converted to following Jesus Christ (i.e., writers of The New Testament).

    Understand now?

  39. jsm says:

    No argument, Bill. I just thought the statement was poorly worded and could be easily misconstrued. A better statement may have been, ‘The tenets of our faith were originally penned by Jewish people.’

  40. GOPeach says:

    jsm-

    Sorry to confuse you.

    Without a doubt our faith comes from God as did the faith of the first (Jewish) Christians.

    FYI- More and more modern “O.T. Jews” are becoming “N.T. Jews”! This is because the OT clearly reveals that Yeshuah ( Jesus) is the Messiah:

    Jesus said to them,

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