Free advice for supporters of amnesty.

As I watched today’s ‘Georgia Gang’ their discussion of the proposed immigration bill cemented in my mind that a resolution of this problem is nowhere in sight. I lay the blame for this mostly at the feet of the “legalize them all now” crowd. The strange thing to me is that the “legalize them all now” crowd could have almost everything they want in short order if they would only agree to pass a bill containing only border security measures.

Americans are generous people. Most Americans would not want to sentence the children of illegal immigrants (most of whom are American citizens) to a life of poverty in the home countries of their parents. Furthermore, with unemployment currently at 4.5%, the question could be asked: “just exactly who’s jobs are being taken away?” Nevertheless, these issues are swept away because of our government’s complete inability to secure our southern border.

I’m not holding my breathe for anything like what I’ve suggested to happen because the “legalize them all now” crowd won’t budge and Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi have no interest in doing anything unless it hurts George Bush.

14 comments

  1. jm says:

    Its a very complex issue….I don’t get how you seal the border…if we build a 20 foot wall, they’ll get 21′ ladders…no brainer. People jumped over the berlin Wall, and survived, even with shoot to kill orders. I doubt the US gov’t will go to that extreme, so you are left with a guy jumping over a wall, and then a foot race in the dark. These people have built tunnels, used boats, and whatever means neccessary to get here.

    OK, I think the other ridiculous issue/statement was the let’s round ’em all up and ship them back. Twelve million people. Plus, trying to send them back without infringing on the rights of guest workers, residents, US citizens who are children of Mexicans, etc. is impossible. And that’s just the Mexicans. There are thousands of people from other places, including Europe, who aren’t here legally but aren’t “as easy to spot”.

    And after all that, any Cuban with a “dry foot” still gets asylum.

    OK….now time to straighten some facts. While I will admit that Reid and Pelosi would love nothing more than to gloat about the presidents predicament (as they tried to do with that weird vote of “no confidence” in Alberto Gonzalez), the immigration bill was killed by Republicans in the Senate. Bush wanted the bill, and worked with Reid and Pelosi to get it as far as they could. Amendments, debate, all that bickering on both sides have so far stalled the bill, and I doubt we will see anything this year. Opinions are too wide to develop enough common ground.

  2. joe says:

    Testerday, on one of the talking head shows, Ted Kennedy admitted that there were problems with the current bill, but said that it needed to be passed so that it could be fixed.

    The federal government has few responsibilities under the constitution. If they would just concentrate on those few, maybe they could (finally) get something right.

  3. debbie0040 says:

    Sunday article in Montgomery Advertiser in Alabama.

    http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007706240307

    June 25, 2007

    U.S. immigration system ‘mazes’

    Couple’s ordeal highlights problems

    By Kenneth Mullinax

    Jeff Coppa and Gobin Singh bristle at the very thought of the government giving illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. To them, it would be just so unfair to those who follow the law — no matter how much time or money it costs them.

    The Elmore County couple spent 10 months and $4,140 — $840 in application fees and $3,300 for a lawyer — to get permanent residence status for Singh, a Jamaican of Indian descent. Now, she has all the privileges of citizenship except the right to vote. She even knows the joy of paying taxes.

    Their emotional investment, though, was so much more — frustration, anxiety, humiliation. And they have no doubt that every immigrant going through the process suffers somehow.

    It’s a system in need of fixing, Coppa and Singh agree, but the immigration reform bill that’s scheduled to go to the Senate floor this week isn’t the way to do it. The answer, they think, is doing away with the bureaucratic red tape — not granting amnesty for the 12 million immigrants here illegally.

  4. griftdrift says:

    Can the non-“legalize them all” crowd please explain what your solution is for dealing with 12 million people.

    Maybe it’s attrition as Pat Buchanan suggested on Meet The Press yesterday? I still haven’t stopped laughing.

  5. John Konop says:

    griftdrift

    If employers had to pay the fully loaded cost of their immigrant workers you would see the problem fix itself.

    The immigrants are her for jobs.

    The game is simple but sad.

    A meat backer was making 18 to 20 dollars an hour with benefits and paying taxes. He or she gets replaced by an illegal or legal immigrant at 8 to 10 dollars an hour with benefits and social service cost paid by tax payers.

    The American gets two part time jobs which since the Clinton years counts as two jobs not one and tax payers pick up the cost now of his or her healthcare cost. That is why Peach-care is exploding!

    And to make the problem worse we pit all of them against overseas child and slave labor.

    As Cesar Chavez said immigration cannot be a tool to drive down wages!

    That is why to tackle this problem we most talk about trade. I will remind everyone we use to talk about trade and immigration as one policy pre-NAFTA. The part all of you should take note that the same group that told us NAFTA will fix the illegal immigration problem are the same group behind the immigration bill.

    BTW for all of you who think we need overseas slave labor or workers with limited rights to maintain our economy, I will remind you that argument was made before our own CIVIL WAR on why we could not free the slaves.

  6. griftdrift says:

    So wait a minute John. If I get what you are saying, if we forced some sort of wage control, american business would suddenly start hiring non-immigrants and all the illegal immigrants would magically throw their hands up in the air and walk home?

  7. John Konop says:

    griftdrift

    I never said wage control. Yet the father of free market economics Adam Smith made it clear labor must have the right to negotiate, rule of law (IP protection) and justice.

    If you pit one set of workers with rights against another with limited rights do you not see you are deluding all workers rights!

    And if business had to pay the fully loaded cost they would invest in technology not cheap labor. We have a system that tax payers are subsidizing employers and causing then not to invest in technology like robotics because the ROI is not there due to cheap labor. This is very short term thinking!

    If employers were forced to pay the real cost the market would sort out the people would stay verse the people who were not would go home via no job!

    This would also drive wages up and help the economy as well as tax revenue.

    Also the father of Free Market economics had no problem with penalizing trade partners that violate the rule of law!

    From encyclopedia of Economics

    Biography of
    Adam Smith (1723-90)

    Adam Smith has sometimes been caricatured as someone who saw no role for government in economic life. In fact, he believed that government had an important role to play. Like most modern believers in free markets, Smith believed that the government should enforce contracts and grant patents and copyrights to encourage inventions and new ideas. One definite difference between Smith and most modern believers in free markets is that Smith favored retaliatory tariffs.

  8. griftdrift says:

    Thanks for biography of Adam Smith, John. Never heard of him.

    I just find it a little pie in the sky to believe that 12 million people will suddenly all go “game over man”, uproot extended families and trek back to their homeland.

    Seems people have had a tendency to stay in our fair piece of the earth despite hardship since 1620. Or 10,000 years ago, if you would prefer to talk about the original owners.

  9. Doug Deal says:

    Grift,

    People are not plants, they have legs. When you can’t find a job, a place to live, etc, they will return home.

    I have little problem with legal immigration, and I do not think that I have a problem with guest worker plans.

    I have a major problem with undocumented illegals entering our country to the tune of 12 million people, displacing the poor and undercutting the wages of American workers, while the businesses that hire them are not paying taxes. It is those taxes that fund the medical benefits that these illegals are using.

    My immigration reform would be to toughen the penalties on businesses that hire illegals, which includes felony level jail time and confiscation of assets for people who do not use due diligence to verify citizenship. There are already systems in place that require businesses to report new hires to find people who owe child support. Why would this system not work for illegals?

    Guest workers would have to register, would be specifically prohibited from becoming citizens, and would be limited in the amount of time they are allowed to stay. People becoming citizens would have to follow a more rigorous course, which would require them to understand enough English to be functional in the society at large, and understand and agree to our system of self government.

    I like immigrants, and find it as a source of pride that people want to join us. However, if they are not willing or able to follow our laws, and join us under our terms, they have no business being here.

  10. griftdrift says:

    And yet Doug, other than vague notions of making it economically uncomfortable so they just leave, I’ve yet to hear how we are going to deal with the ones already here.

    I don’t disagree with limits on the guest worker terms but how will it be enforced? Overstaying visas is already a prime source of illegal immigration. The math is pretty simple. Last year was a peak year for deportation. We deported 160,000 people. The low estimates of illegals in this country is 12 million.

    I ain’t saying we should have solutions, including some of the ones you mention Doug, but why not have some discussions about realistic solutions instead of just cavalierly throwing around words like amnesty.

  11. jsm says:

    jm, what will illegals do with this wall?
    http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/MCDCproposedfence.jpg

    Building a fence and sending illegals home is less expensive than paying their emergency room hospital care, food stamps, housing, Social Security, and other entitlements given to them.

    I believe in compassion, but I refuse to put illegals ahead of immigrants who come here through the system we set up for them. I have no sympathy for those who sneak in this country solely to make a buck. If we would enforce our laws, we would starve them out and see them return home on their own.

  12. CHelf says:

    So we resort to ONLY building a wall. Guards become corrupt and start smuggling rings( wait, already done). Tunnels are dug (wait, already done). CNN even showed a gate for this new wall swinging wide open with no locks, guards, etc.

    So let’s see what happens if the “secure the border first” crowd gets their way:

    -illegals still ‘steal’ jobs from American workers. They are still here so they continue to work.

    -healthcare and entitlement fraud still continues as the burden on the citizen taxpayer increases.

    -education burden continues

    -crime issues including drugs continues

    -more bureacracy grows as people realize that we have more border than just a fence along Mexico. Ports and Canada become the way for others to continue to seep in.

    So at the end of the day, we see that the “anti-amnesty” crowd is actually granting amnesty because they won’t actually work towards solving this full problem. Focusing solely on a fence and some Border Patrol still does not address all of these other elements they “secure the border first” crowd keeps throwing out as the problem with illegals. Jobs are still being taken up. Criminal elements in this crowd still exist. Schools, hospitals, etc. still face their issues.

    So in the end, the ones only wanting the borders secured and thus blackmailing Congress to only pass this portion are continuing to add to the burden the rest of us face. They want a bandaid fix that clearly can be circumnavigated and they fail to even address any of their reasons this problem is the plague upon our society. If they get their way, every reason this issue is tearing our country apart still exists. So what is their point? They’ve accomplished nothing but making government bigger and causing the real issue to fester if not grow even more. Again, I hope this wall is quickly built so America can see that a few hotheads have hijacked the system and have done nothing to actually solve the problem and may have even made it worse.

  13. Dawgfan says:

    Look, in my mind it all boils down to this. There are 12 million people in the US and we don’t really know a damn thing about them. I think you can divide them into two groups. Those who want to dig ditches and those who want to BLOW ME UP! It the ones in the second catagory I’m worried about. So everyone who is screaming about no amnesty and build a wall tell me how you propose to find out which of those 12 million people want to blow me up.

    The logical thing is to do some sort of slap on the wrist everyone come clean program. That way we have a starting point. Then we know who and what we’re dealing with. Then anyone who doesn’t have the proper paper work or whose info doesn’t check out gets shipped out pronto.

    There doesn’t have to be a direct route to citizenship. I might give preference to the parents of US citizens but that only makes sense. From that point on put them on a plane or a bus just send ’em packing.

    If you can devise and regulate a guest worker program then more resources can be used to find and detect the one that want to blow us up and less on those who want to dig ditches. It’s just that simple.

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