44 comments

  1. IndyInjun says:

    Hahahaha…..here we go again.

    The GOP has a death wish and its perfect embodiment is the Fair??????tax.

    Steve Forbes and Dick Armey have the right idea with a flat tax, something that has been enormously successful in Eastern Europe. It achieves tax simplification while not giving away $trillions already due to the government, destroying state and local finances, rewarding government-induced price inflation, and crushing the middle class between the millstones of inflation and taxation, as Lenin so aptly prescribed.

    A flat tax is readily achievable with mechanisms already in place. Of course, it does not have the lucre of the hidden agenda behind the Fair????tax.

  2. Bull Moose says:

    You mean Linder’s Tax Sham Plan? Where they get you to obsess about a tax plan that is totally unrealistic so that you won’t pay attention to the real addressable problems that we’re facing.

    The REAL FAIR TAX is a plain and simple flat tax where you can do your taxes on a post card.

    The Flat Tax has a track record of success across Eastern Europe and is the most easily implemented of all the proposals for tax reform currently discussed in our country.

    Don’t by the hype on the Sales Tax.

  3. Bull Moose says:

    IndyInjun you mean you and I agree on something??? WOW!

    Seriously though, I wrote mine before I saw your reply!

  4. IndyInjun says:

    We agree on much, much more than just this, except I seem to be one of the few here unwilling to give Johnny and Saxby second chances to screw us all.

    This country needs another Bull Moose like Teddy Roosevelt. We are in the second era of robber barons with both parties in allegiance with them.

    The Fair?????tax and the philosophy behind one of its key precepts are things that the earlier Robber Barons would love.

  5. I Am Jacks Post says:

    Mike Huckabee talking about cutting taxes. Ok, begin hearty belly laugh . . . wait for it . . . now!

  6. Bull Moose says:

    I trust Johnny Isakson 110%. Anyone that knows Johnny Isakson knows that man cares about Georgia and this country. He will fight for what is right, even if it’s not politically expediant. IndyInjun, like the originall Bull Moose, TR, that’s the kind of man we need in office!

    I do not know Saxby well enough to make that statement. He seems to be fairly reasonable and I have to believe that he too has what is right in mind.

    On a pure political point, I get a sense across the state that people are more than willing to give Johnny Isakson the benefit of the doubt, but may not be as generous with Saxby.

  7. Jace Walden says:

    Bull,

    If by “just like T[eddy] R[oosevelt]” you mean “is a liberal Republican”, then yes, Johnny is just like TR.

    Don’t you think the country has had enough of liberal Republicans?

    Sorry, I forgot you guys hate the term liberal. I meant “progressive”….my bad.

  8. Donkey Kong says:

    I too would support the flat tax over the fair tax. Proven to work, simple…let’s do it.

  9. Bull Moose says:

    Jace, get real. In your dreams was TR a liberal republican… He was a REAL conservative in every sense of the word.

  10. Adam Smith says:

    the Fair tax and the Flat tax both are better than the current system, but the question needs to be asked, “How will this sell to America?”

    The problem is that most Americans do not understand any tax system, and they are not trusting that “rich” Repubs will look out for their interests. They believe that while the current system takes to much of their wages, the current system is still relatively fair.

    The more that this is pushed, the more that the average blue collar Joe 6-pack will believe that the GOP is not for them. The Dems have done a masterful job of trying to mislead the general public into believing that any change will only benefit the rich, and that is why the GOP wants to change it. There are not enough efforts by the GOP to actually explain why the change is needed.

    The reason why Reagan is so loved comes from his ability to communicate to Joe 6-pack. I can remember several speeches where he had the proposed law in front of him and the public could see how massive it was (whatever the law was). Reagan was able to subtly ridicule several proposed laws and thereby gaining the support of the American people in doing so.

    The GOP needs to show the tax code for what it is. The GOP needs to show how the very wealthy are able to use it to their advantage. This needs to be a concentrated effort and needs to be done on a daily basis. Once that is done, the American people will start to change their views on the current tax system and begin to have a sense of outrage that can be channeled by supporters of the Fair and/or Flat Tax into changing the tax code. In other words, instead of trying to show why the Flat or Fair Tax is a good idea, we need to concentrate on showing why the current tax system is broken. Once people see that it is broken, and can understand in simple terms how it is broken, they will look for any other way to change it.

    Until then, anyone signing up to support the Flat Tax or the Fair Tax is simply pandering for support from Repubs. They know that change will not actually happen, but it sounds good and gains supporters for them. I look at it as Huckabee basically saying “I am for puppy dogs, babies, and the environment. “

  11. IndyInjun says:

    Adam Smith wrote “The more that this is pushed, the more that the average blue collar Joe 6-pack will believe that the GOP is not for them. The Dems have done a masterful job of trying to mislead the general public into believing that any change will only benefit the rich, and that is why the GOP wants to change it.”

    Adam, you are absolutely correct and this is EXACTLY why the GOP should avoid the “Fair????”tax like the plague.

    In THIS CASE, the Dems only have to point out the facts of the matter.

    The claims that Boortz and Linder make are universally false and misleading.

    The reason that tax accountants and IRS agents do not speak out against it, much to the puzzlement of Boortz, is that they gleefully anticipate its passage.

    I have researched this deal pretty well.

    If a Dem gets into a tight race with a GOPer, they can use what I found to blow the Fair????taxer right out of the water.

  12. Adam Smith says:

    I would simply also point out that for those who live in Barrow’s district, does it not send a shiver down your spine to hear the phrase, yet again, the “Max Tax”. False, misleading, incorrect, but EFFECTIVE.

    Barrow painted the picture of the Max Tax hurting the poor, and helping the rich. Max, in effect, responded by saying that the system needed changing without ever explaining to Joe 6-pack why it needed to be changed in language which Joe 6-pack could understand. (And yes, I lived in Athens at the time so I had the “opportunity” to see the commercials.) Max lost.

    Max should have come out swinging. He should have said that the rich are escaping paying their fair share while Joe 6-pack actually pays more than the rich do. The system is crrupt, incorrect, unfair, has to change, and Barrow is against changing it. A different approach, but likely a different result. (Max tried this, but never used language that Joe 6-pack could understand).

    You cannot suggest change to the government until you have successfully shown why change is needed. Repubs just skip over this step, and it can have the potential to doom any Fair and/or Flat Tax change.

  13. IndyInjun says:

    You also cannot change government if you lock yourself into the most unworkable proposal and the one guaranteed to blow up in your face.

    I agree TOTALLY about Barrow’s ads. He and I discussed using the “Fair????tax” against Burns months before the campaign, but those ads were more politically effective and definitely more misleading that what I envisioned.

    There are, and were, more truthful aspects that would have been every bit as effective.

    I am PROUD of my role in defeating Burns because of his treachery to GOP principles and figure that we fiscal conservatives resulted in his defeat by those 800-900 votes.

    I will work to defeat the other “Fair????tax” proponents in the Georgia Delegation who also voted for Medicare D, No Child Left Behind, and the monstrous deficit spending of the last 6 years. It is the conservative thing to do.

    USA reported today “The federal government recorded a $1.3 trillion loss last year …The loss — equal to $11,434 per household — is more than Americans paid in income taxes in 2006.

    http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070529/1a_lede29.art.htm

    The truth is that no tax system can collect 100% of earnings and then confiscate property – and that is what is required to pay for the GOP spending madness.

    Ron Paul is trying to educate the people about the INFLATION TAX that the GOP is using to ‘correct’ their imbalances. He is a Fair???Tax proponent, but one who is adamant that the only way to tax reform is SPENDING REFORM, which addresses the inflation tax.

  14. Bull Moose says:

    Jace why don’t you just leave the Republican Party? Sorry if we’re not all fire breathing far right extremists like you and your ilk.

    I’m a COMMON SENSE CONSERVATIVE in the tradition of Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. This thread was not about me or my politics, but rather about the tax code.

    What’s your problem that every time I say anything on here you want to go after me personally and completely ignore the larger issue?

  15. Holly says:

    Wait, WHOA. Max’s vote was to study the Fair Tax, not to implement it. He did vote for Medicare Part D, but he was not in office for the No Child Left Behind vote.

    I understand that there are people out there who don’t like every vote he cast, but let’s not tie him to things he didn’t do.

  16. IndyInjun says:

    Holly,

    I hammered Max for Medicare D in 2006.

    Saxby, Johnny endorsed the ‘Fair????’ tax and were guilty of voting for it and those other ghastly spending measures cited, as did most of the Georgia GOP delegation.

    They claim to be conservatives hawking tax reform, when their VOTES in Congress for off-budget borrowings and on-budget deficits make ANY tax reform impossible, because their votes necessitate more than 100% tax rates.

    It is their fiscal irresponsibility that is making inflation explode, crushing the middle class between the twin grindstones of inflation and taxation, as Lenin was fond of stating.

  17. IndyInjun says:

    Oops…. they voted for the other ghastly measures, but not the ‘Fair????tax” as it obviously has not come to a vote. (bad editing and modification on my part!)

    Burns retreated from the FT under fire, but very accurately was depicted as a supporter of it on the basis of his co-sponsorship during his 2 years as Congressman.

  18. Bull Moose says:

    I am convinced the fair tax is the biggest sham to ever be pulled off in American politics.

    It is not implementable at all. It has a record of failure in countries that tried to implement it.

    Real tax reform is the flat tax – plain and simple. It can be implemented almost instantly.

    However, here is the dirty side of the debate and why the Republicans don’t have clean hands and continue to push the Sham Tax. Republicans, by and large, in Washington DC have been there too long. They became what they detested which was entrenched establishment insiders. They are beholden to every special interest group and that runs counter to the interests of their constituents.

    So, what do they do? Duck and Dodge and trump out this sham, the fair tax. Who cares that it doesn’t work. It sounds good!

    As for Max Burns, he didn’t answer the crucial question of his race against Barrow the first or second time they met in the election. Barrow hammered him on the MAX TAX and he never responded or defended the fair tax or himself for that matter.

    I agree, Max should have responded in that plain spoken common sense way with the US Tax Code next to him and just said, “Flat Tax, Fair Tax, or Max Tax, whatever you call it, I think we agree the US Tax Code Needs Reforming.” “I’m Max Burns and I do not support higher taxes and the status quo liberal agenda of taxing innovation, job creation, and prosperity the way my opponent does.”

    It would have put Barrow on Defense.

  19. Jace Walden says:

    Bull,

    HEYRO! I’m not in the Republican Party! It’s because of big-government liberal Republicans like you and right-wing zealots that I left. Face it, your party doesn’t believe in small government, and that is partly because of you!

  20. Jace Walden says:

    The larger is IS that the candidates you “trust 110%” are part of the problem…I can name them by name if you want me to…Isakson, McCain, Chambliss…need I go on?

  21. IndyInjun says:

    Bull Moose –

    You are totally right about the entrenchment of the GOP. It is WHY they push it.

    You wrote, ” Who cares that it doesn’t work. It sounds good!”

    There’s the rub. It works BRILLIANTLY for those who started the Fair????tax movement and who presumably continue to fund its $100 million nationwide campaign.

    Get them to disclose their funding and I will show y’all what I mean.

    As for Max hyping tax reform, that is easily negated by his vote on Medicare D, which put another $27,000 in debt on every man, woman and child in the USA. That too, would have been easily demonstrated and the people would hate Max hawking fiscal responsibility in tax reform, when he just got through spending so much that it swamps ANY reform.

    Jace –

    Give Bull a break. He does not have his blinders on with this topic. He has a high degree of loyalty to Johnny, who is a REALLY NICE GUY, which has lead him to overlook Isakson’s breach with principles.

    You and I are not going to do that.

    John Linder is another matter.Here you have the father of the “Fair????”tax, who either does not know what is in his own bill or is lying about it. Here you have a guy hawking a tax that makes no provision for covering Medicare D, an $8 trillion liability that he voted for.

    Linder is for his Fair????tax and also for unbridled spending that overwhelms the Fair????tax.

    The amazing thing is that folks here actually wonder what we fiscal conservatives hate about the GOP Georgia Delegation. The answer is that we don’t take their pronouncements at face value and for good reason.

  22. IndyInjun says:

    Girl, my dear, I did not expect to make you THAT ANGRY at our Georgia Delegation!

    Don’t stroke out on us now, because it will make your employer-paid insurance premiums explode and with it, your Fair????tax bill. If there is a deductible, your taxable insurance won’t pay for it, and you will have to pay a tax on that too. Driving there will be 30% more expensive or thereabouts, because these days America imports much of her gasoline, so there are no embedded US tax savings to reduce the price.

    Boortz is drooling over a $25 million plane on which the tax would be $7.5 million if bought and hangered in the good old USA, but $zero if he purchases and hangers it offshore. After his “tax reform” passes, which will he do?

    Everyone pays, right?

  23. Adam Smith says:

    Jace, I am more than a little confused. You call Bull Moose Squirrel a “big-government liberal Republicans like you and right-wing zealots”

    On the political spectrum, a liberal is to the left, a conservative to the right. A person on the right, until you go to the extreme, is against government action in daily life, ie, against big government. Same thing with being a “liberal” republican. Now you can say that for an alleged Republican, he sounds like a closet Demo who is in favor of big government and is actually a liberal in his beliefs, well….I would tend to agree.

    Now, if you want to mention how anyone can trust any politician “110%”, well, I would agree that they are more than a little naive.

    Similarily, if you want to say that a McCain rabid supporter is not in touch with reality, I would agree.

    But to call Bull Moose Squirrel a big government liberal Republican is just plain illogical.

  24. GOP Girl says:

    It is not the GA Delegation I’m hatin on Indy.
    And by the way, I think I saw a porcupine crawlin up your azz.

    The “drafts” of the FAIR tax/Max Tax are obviously not complete nor imperfect. Nor was Hillary Clinton’s health care plan. At least it’s a starting point. At least we have someone willing to tackle the problem and start the discussion. If you think for one minute John Pinky Pants Barrow is going to deliver something bigger and better, you are very sadly mistaken. But I don’t have to prove that, time already has.

  25. Jace Walden says:

    Adam,

    I think we have different defintions on what is “liberal” and what is “conservative” and where each lies on the political spectrum. It is highly possible to be simultaneously liberal and conservative. For instance, I am fiscally conservative, but for the most part, socially liberal. Then again, I don’t call myself a “conservative”.

    A person on the right is not against big government. Perhaps you haven’t been paying attention to the political climate of the past 6 years…George W. Bush, who most people would place to the right of the political spectrum has increased the size and scope of government more than any administration since LBJ. He has no qualms with big government.

    Moreover, a GOP controlled House and Senate, which most people would say leans to the right, did absolutely nothing to curb the growth in government, spending, entitlements, etc. There is literally no difference in the fiscal habits of the 110th Congress and the 109th Congress, even though the 110th Congress is considered “left” and the 109th Congress was considered “right”.

    Liberal Republicans aren’t against big-government…as long as that big government is acting in their favor. The same goes with the far-right religious fundamentalists in the party…they aren’t opposed to big government, as long as the big government looks after their own pet projects.

    So, it follows that calling someone both “pro-big government” and “liberal Republican” is not only logical, it is a fact.

  26. IndyInjun says:

    Girlie,

    That was a concubine!

    If there is anything being stuck up our azzes, it is that Linder’s contrivance is “fair.”

    Since porcupines have spines, they are one up on GOP congressmen who vote as told by their corrupt leadership, not for what they preach.

  27. GOP Girl says:

    Jace is correct about the GOP controlled government. Bushies first term brought more “big” government than Clinton’s administration, and we all know how BIG Billy Boy liked things.

  28. Jeff Emanuel says:

    I am convinced the fair tax is the biggest sham to ever be pulled off in American politics.

    Wow, Bull, that’s some high status for something that’s never really gotten anywhere past being the title of a book.

    Isn’t there an actual implemented policy you’d call a sham?

  29. Icarus says:

    “Isn’t there an actual implemented policy you’d call a sham? ”

    You mean like, McCain-Feingold, for instance?

  30. IndyInjun says:

    It is one of those ‘CONfidence’ schemes, whereby the masses, crushed between Leninist inflation and taxation, seek relief from the latter, only to be crushed by a 30% tax ON TOP OF the former.

    Instead of getting that tempting 100% of paycheck, they get 90% of paycheck BUT also get a 30% tax on hyperinflating utilities, gasoline, medical care, and food.

    The masses are lead to demand a tax that rewards creation of inflation government deficit spending, which devalues future fixed obligations while taxing costs that rise with the inflation.

    Boortz gives sound advice of`”Don’t believe anything you read ..or..anything you hear on The Neal Boortz Show, unless it is .. what you already know to be true, or unless you have taken the time to research the matter to prove its accuracy …. This is known as “doing your homework.”

    I did.

    The ‘Fair????’ tax benefits big government and big business by crushing not-so-big people.

    The ghost of Lenin smiles on John Linder.

  31. IndyInjun says:

    What ‘propaganda’ ?????????

    Hyperinflation used to be defined as inflation in the double digits. Georgia Power has gotten rate increases in the aggregate of 17% in the last two years. Do you DENY that the Fair?????tax applies to electricity?

    Gasoline prices are up 80% from a year ago. Do you DENY that the FT would apply to gasoline purchases? BTW more refined gas than the public knows is imported so that there is NO embedded tax savings that the FT hawkers like to mention. Also we import 60% + of our oil, which has no embedded US tax.

    My health insurance went up 30% this year after going up 15% less than a year ago. The “Fair????tax” applies to that too. (If you check the stats, there is not much payroll tax or income tax paid by insurance companies relative to revenues, so the embedded tax savings are de minimis here too.)

    Recent reports are of food prices exploding from the ethanol factor.

    Most folks wages are going up 3 to 6% a year.

    Applying a 30% tax (34% based upon Global Insights rescoring of the FT rate and 40% + combined rates assuming that state taxes become “Fair????taxes) to costs that are compounding at such rates cited above, versus salaries going up at single digits, PUTS LENIN TO SHAME in wiping out the middle class.

    Next time try debate instead of calling names.

    While you are at it, ask Linder why he voted for Medicare D, when it blows apart the assumptions behind the Fair????tax rate?

    While we are calling names, I have one for the “conservative” Linder ….

    I
    M
    P
    O
    S
    T
    E
    R

  32. Doug Deal says:

    Indy,

    I was commenting more on the style of your writing. Even if it is grounded in absolute truths, it is presented in a way that probably makes most reasonable people roll their eyes and discount it.

    I was an early adopter of the National Retail Sales Tax, but my enthusiasm has waned due to various issues. I am guarded about it, but would love to see a real debate. Making hyperbolic statements does not lead itself to credibility on your side, however.

  33. IndyInjun says:

    It is not hyperbolic to say that Big Oil gave the Fair*tax org its start. It was reported in the Houston Chronicle.

    It is not hyperbolic to say that there are $tens of billions in tax liabilities that go straight to shareholder equity on the balance sheets of the oil company. Go look at SEC Filing 10-K’s.

    It is not hyperbolic to say that the Fair????tax applies to nursing home services, unlike the current state sales tax we have embraced.

    It is not hyperbolic to say that you either don’t get 100% of your paycheck or that the embedded tax savings are more like 15% than 25%. Boortz had to admit that.

    I don’t like it when the PEOPLE are being scammed.

    Where my anger shows through is that this deal is Linder’s baby and his real life votes run counter to it and fiscal conservatism.

    I too was an early adopter until researching the facts and not being able to figure out how there was 22 to 25% embedded tax savings after 22 years of dissecting compounding tax cost overcharges in contracts.

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