Fair Tax Rally Report

From the Gwinnett Daily Post:

Linder, who wrote a book on the subject in 2005 with nationally syndicated radio talk show host Neal Boortz, said momentum is building for the FairTax in Congress, even with Democrats in the majority.

He said, just three months into the new term, the bill has 57 co-sponsors in the House including Rep. Tom Price, R-Roswell, who also spoke at Tuesday’s rally. That’s about the same level of support it took Linder two years to get during the last congressional term.

Linder said lawmakers are lining up behind the FairTax because there’s a popular outcry for it.

“These people are coming to us because people in their communities are coming up to them,” he said. “We’re hearing it everywhere in the country.”

37 comments

  1. Federalist says:

    The fair tax will never pass. Too many people rely on the tax system as it exists, and those that want a change can’t rub two pennies together to fund a political campaign. I give the “fair” tax another year or two before it is mocked and laughed at by the very people who currently support it.

  2. CobbGOPer says:

    Buzz is right. FairTax.org is in fact getting more donations, more money coming in to back promotional efforts. As long as this confiscatory tax system is in place, the FairTax is going to have support. It’s just a matter of getting enough popular anger channeled into election campaigns.

    If we could convincingly point to support or opposition to the FairTax as a deciding factor in a Congressional race (any race, we don’t care which), it would be a great boon to the movement and would open the eyes of other legislators. Like I’ve said before, the only public opinion polls that politicians pay attention to are the ones conducted on Election Day at the ballot box.

  3. Chris says:

    If we could convincingly point to support or opposition to the FairTax as a deciding factor in a Congressional race

    2002, Linder v Barr in the GOP Primary.

  4. Chris says:

    ‘course that said – it was a long time ago, it was a primary, and Barr was being targeted for his role in the impeachment.

  5. SevenHillsDem says:

    The people who support the FairTax REALLY support the FairTax. Everyone I know that actually cares about the issue is a radical who cares about little else. So, I wouldn’t be so sure that it will last. It also has absolutely no chance of passing the current Congress. I can’t think of one Democrat who will vote for it and more than a few Republicans who oppose it.

  6. Doug Deal says:

    7HD,

    The fact that there are “radicals” in favor of it increases the likelyhood that it will pass. Everything with great opposition from the Revolutionary war to Women’s Sufferage was won by a vocal committed minority, and not by a call by a complacent majority.

    The constant hammering of “radicals” only had to be successful once, while the people opposed to it have to be successful every time it is proposed. The fact that they are “radicals” means they will be around for the long haul.

  7. IndyInjun says:

    Never underestimate the power of telling working class that they will get “100% of your paycheck.” Its the hook for a con job on them, but they will fight you for warning them of falling for it.

    I seriously thought that the 2006 election would have killed it, instead it seems to be gaining momentum, probably as a result of the squeeze that inflation is putting on folks. Said squeeze makes earners YEARN to reduce the tax burden and they never do the math that the ‘Fair????’ tax rewards government for creating inflation.

    As far as elections decided by it, Max Burns tried mightily to distance himself from it last year. I don’t think it was the determining issue, though, for Burn’s abandonment of GOP principles was the reason for his defeat.

    These things being said, the GOP SHOULD BE running from this nutty deal as fast as they can, for one of these days the opposition is going to expose what it really is and in terms that the working folks can understand.

    This writer does not think that they will like being fooled.

  8. CobbGOPer says:

    Indy, the reason the FairTax has picked up steam is because the “opposition” has no logical arguments to “expose what it really is,” because they know it’s a better deal for Americans. Please enlighten us as to what you think “it really is…”

    I’m not sure you have a good grasp of the concept of the FairTax in the first place.

  9. Mad Dog says:

    The Fair Tax is a pack of lies spread by a bunch of liars who have a bunch of idiots following them.

    Is that enough plain talk on taxes?

    It’s a huge spending bill disquised as a tax plan that will temporarily reduce taxes for the top 2% of Americans, increase federal spending $1.4 trillion dollars, increase taxes on the bottom 90% of American while bankrupting the Federal Government.

    MD

  10. IndyInjun says:

    CobbGOPer, you wrote “I’m not sure you have a good grasp of the concept of the FairTax in the first place.”

    I have done sales tax work for 9 Fortune 500 companies in 17 states, with a focus on research that achieved $10’s of millions in savings and recoveries.

    I have applied this knowledge to the ‘Fair????’ tax and find ‘the Book’ and “The Bill” everyone insists that I read totally laughable.

    If surrendering y’all’s principles to this whacked out administration doesn’t kill your demented party, this deal will.

    The question is whether Linder knows any more about sales taxation than he knows about fiscal responsibility.

    How on earth can a party that stands for fiscal responsibility stomach an entire delegation, save Norwood God rest his soul, of FAKE conservatives?

    Grasping at straws, they have seized an anchor.

    So what background in taxation do YOU have?

  11. MountainThinker says:

    IndyInjun,
    I think you’ll find that many (though certainly not all) on this board are FairTax supporters. That being said, if you have particular professional insight into the why’s and how’s of problems with the FairTax, I think we’d all be interested in hearing you out if you’d indulge with what will no doubt be a lengthy post on the subject. I think that if nothing else, it wold help to move the debate fwd in a positive way and perhaps we’ll learn you’re right, or perhaps you’ll discover that you overlooked some measure to offset your concerns…I invite you to share your concerns/thoughts…

  12. Federalist says:

    MountainThinker,
    Well for one, the Fair Tax is not credible. Michael Graetz, professor of law at Yale University Law School and author of The Decline (and Fall?) of the Income Tax, debated Neil Boortz on CSPAN last April and embarrassed both Linder and Boortz. Apparently, the Authors of the Fair Tax Revolution borrowed conclusions from different, conflicting academic studies and synthesized the empirical results without ever testing the hypotheses proposed by the Fair Tax plan. In layman’s terms, Boortz and Linder made up facts to support their “Fair” tax plan. In my experience, making up “facts” does not lead to good policy…just look at what happened with Iraq.

  13. IndyInjun says:

    john d. and MountainThinker…..

    I have posted different details of my research in several threads and in many forums.

    Mine is a somewhat different perspective as there are not that many folks who work in sales taxation in a multistate environment. I have played around with launching a web site, which would be quite extensive, t0 examine this tax scheme from various perspectives not found in the Boortz/Linder Book.

    The Bill condradicts their assertions in MANY, MANY ways, making me conclude that Linder does not know what is in his own bill or he is LYING.

    The fairtax org site also has a lot of misrepresentations.

    I tend to look to how the sales tax works and to how the existing sales tax systems would bite the heck out of folks in ways that no Harvard economist bought off with $millions in ‘funding’ from the fairtax folks even thinks about. Beyond that I can disprove a LOT of the claims about this nuttiness from drawing from the proposed legislation.

    Long sigh……it beginning to look like I need to do it…..I am just trying to figure out a way to make it FUN.

    Shoot, I need to do it and advertise it on Peachpundit!!!!

  14. jaws810 says:

    IndyInjun it does not matter if you helped administer a sales tax in a single or multi-state environment your experiance is irrelevant because the FairTax removes ALL federal income taxes from the picture, including corporate taxes, ss taxes, medicare taxes, and adds a rebate to refund all taxes paid upto the poverty level which I’m sure was not done in any of your scenerios and therefore you would not know the outcome of a system with these measures in place.
    You are right about one thing a pure sales tax is not good for the poor, however the FairTax is not a pure salestax.
    No tax plan is perfect, but changing over to the FairTax from the income tax is like trading in a beat up old 79 VW Beetle for a brand new 2007 Ferrari F430.
    From what I’ve read about the FairTax both positive and negitive I believe that the rewards far outweigh the limitations, or for a simpler analysis it is the lesser of two evils when compared to the income tax.

  15. IndyInjun says:

    Jaws…

    Jawing with a True Believer is a waste of time, but here goes.

    The ‘Fair????’ tax is politically dead because retired people and people approaching retirement have accumulated after-income-tax retirement funds, understand that said funds are drawn down during retirement instead of earning taxable income (with the tax burden), and won’t agree to pay this horrendously high tax, a huge slice of which is to pay SS all over again, on expenditures of their already taxed savings. And these folks vote in disproportionate numbers. Couple them with the poor who will understand that paying a 30% tax on hyperinflating costs is a bad deal, irrespective of the prebate, and the votes will never be there.

    Like all TRUE BELIEVERS you won’t pay any attention, so why bother?

    I have done SALES TAX RESEARCH and have studied the actual bill and its relationship to the existing sales tax. If you really understood how the ‘Fair????’ tax is supposed to work, you would understand that this tax is supposed to be collected by the state revenue agencies. Said agencies have vast powers over INDIVIDUALS, both in statute and confirmed by jurisprudence, that the fairtaxers evidently are ignorant of, or are lying about.

    That it won’t work is confirmed here by Georgia House Leaderships desire to eliminate all exemptions and move to the FLorida model of sales taxation, which broadly taxes business, a direct contradiction with the ‘Fair???’ tax approach. You have sworn ‘Fair????’ tax affiocionados moving in precisely the OPPOSITE DIRECTION at the state level. (What is truly humorous is that the GA legislators don’t even know enough about what they are doing to understand it!)

    We may very well end up with a consumption tax of some kind – after the USA declares bankruptcy and we have to build a financial system from scratch.

    I will sign off here, for the factors against this nutty scheme are too long and detailed to ennumerate.

    Enjoy the kool aid.

  16. Mad Dog says:

    Indy,

    The book is a mass of sales pitches and contradicts itself.

    It starts out praising the Confederacy for what reason? Not for anything to do with taxation.

    I’ve seen hundreds of posts by level headed people that expose the lies.

    None of the kool aid generation can understand the truth anymore.

    MD

  17. shep1975 says:

    You two need to get your heads out of the collective punch bowls:

    What you seem to forget is those senior citizens are already paying federal income taxes when they go and buy a loaf of bread or a pair of shoes or a dinner out. More research than you cold fund or have time to personally commit to, unless you are an Economic professor somewhere, has determined that 22% of everything we buy is the embedded cost of the IRS from manufacture to retail market.

    Let’s take your $1 loaf of bread and stretch it out. The farmer grew the wheat and, despite wheat subsidies and agricultural tax breaks, that farmer still had to file his income taxes adding to the price of that wheat to clear enough to put bread on the family table. Sunbeam bought the wheat and milled it into flour and baked it into bread. They had to pay corporate income tax, FICA, etc, all of which they added to the wholesale price of that loaf. The company that produced the plastic wrap the sold to Sunbeam also added the IRS into their costs. The trucking company that had to pay all of those taxes as well added them into the price quote for hauling that bread to Kroger. Kroger marked the bread at $1 adding into the price their costs of dealing with the tax code and enough to make a profit.

    Now, the Fair Tax ends the corporate income tax and does not charge taxes on BtoB transactions. Kroger can now price that bread at $.78 and still make the same profit for everyone involved. At checkout, your 25% federal consumption tax makes that loaf cost…do some math… (.78x.25)+.78= .98 WOW, $.02 less!

    Georgia doesn’t charge sales tax on food, but let’s say it was a $1 pack of batteries and you lived in Fulton County with 8% sales tax.

    Currently (1.00 x .08) + 1 = $1.08
    Fair Tax (.78 x (.25+.08)) + .78 = $1.04.

    I know what you’re going to say…there is no guarantee that any of these folks will not just keep the price the same and take the rest in profit. You’re right, and in businesses where there is less competition that might be the case. In other areas where there is a lot of competition though, prices may be driven down like the loaf of bread. Image the item is a $40,000 automobile and GM can knock $1,600 off the price and still keep the exact same profit because Ford was greedy and decided to knock only $800 off the price and keep the extra $800 per car for profit. When that senior citizen sees that new car he’s looking at now cost $1,600 less than it did a year ago and he’s not getting taxed on his investment income or social security, is he going to say, “I’m not buying that car because I had to pay federal taxes my whole life and there is no way I’ll pay for that new ‘Fair Tax’!”

  18. IndyInjun says:

    Boortz himself fell into the embedded tax vs. 100% of paycheck trap and looked like an idiot.

    The ‘Fair????’ taxers tout getting 100% of paychecks to the stressed wage earners and at the same time cite a 22 to 25% embedded tax figure that includes the employee SS and Medicare tax THAT IS PART OF GROSS WAGES. Boortz has been forced to admit this double counting.

    Either the 100% of paycheck claim is false or the embedded taxes are in the low teensas a %.

    The ‘expert Fair???? tax’ economists were funded with $millions from Big Oil, who launched the ‘Fair????’ tax lobbying group. ACTUAL IRS and financial data from public corporations suggest that the embedded taxes are on the order 0f 12 to 15%.

    Furthermore, the embedded tax figure used by the ‘Fair????’ tax prostituted economists ignores the trend toward flat supply chains, vertical integration, and imported goods. Exactly how much embedded US tax is in a good imported and transferred immediately to a shelf at Wal-Mart? NOT MUCH.

    Folks that I talk to about this are SKEPTICAL TO THE MAX that there will be ANY reduction in prices under this nutty scheme.

    Irrespective of embedded tax, they realize that this horrendous tax would apply to nursing home costs , unlike the sales tax they pay now, and that medical costs are exploding by double digits a year, more than doubling every 10 years. Their retirement income tends to be flat at best.

    Finally and the ‘Fair????” taxers NEVER talk about this, but the existing state sales and income taxes would nearly certainly convert to the same tax base, meaning at least another 10% tax exclusive, and putting the combined rate at more than 40%.

    It is easy to put blinders on and fall for this con job, especially for Gen X and Yers, who face crushing tax rates.

    The ‘Fair???’ tax is a misdirection, a feint designed to appeal to the emotional dislike of the awful income tax system in the knowledge that the citizenry, so distracted, will miss the REAL PROBLEM – SPENDING – and those who created it.

    The GAAP debt for the average US household is $600,000 vs. income of $45,000. No growth ever seen nor any tax system can overcome these figures.

    Of course Linder wants to fake out the voters with this con job, for he voted for the largest unfunded social program in US history, adding another $25,000 per capita in debt on us all.

    You see, we fiscal conservatives have been paying attention and won’t be shaken by a bunch of fakery and phony numbers from the REAL PROBLEM – SPENDING.

    Linder is the problem, not the solution.

    We need draconian spending cuts and a FLAT tax, not a con job.

  19. shep1975 says:

    The Fair Tax eliminates FICA too so it’s not double accounting.

    I don’t have the time correct the numerous bit missinformation in your nonsensical ramblings.

    I will say, unlike the Boortz/Linder book, you supply no back-up of your “facts” from independent or even quasi-independent sources. If the IRS said it, give me a link. This is a blog. But since you cannot even source who you are, why should I expect your arguments to be much different?

    What is to stop a flat tax from becoming a “progressive” income tax all over again?

  20. IndyInjun says:

    Sheep…

    Yes, it eliminates FICA, BUT check your paycheck stub. Half of FICA comes out of employee salary. Said salary is included in employER costs and in the 22% “embedded tax savings claimed by the fair taxers. The only way that the employER’s costs are reduced is to reduce that salary.

    One way the employER cuts the salary by 1/2 the FICA tax that comes through said salary AND the employee takes a 7.65% wage cut, invalidating the 100% of paycheck claim but preserving the whole 22% embedded tax claim. The other is for the employer to pay the employee his entire salary, thereby preserving the 100% of paycheck claim (except for the “Fair????” tax on employer paid insurance premiums that is YET ANOTHER issue you all don’t want to talk about) but reducing the embedded taxes available for saving to about 15%.

    The 15% ‘pessimistic’ view was on the fairtaxers site, but they have revised it in the last few months, so that the link is unavailable.

    At http://boortz.com/nuze/200509/09152005.html#fairtax
    Boortz wrote “.your employer is going to have to make a decision. He will either take some or the entire amount he had been withholding for federal income and payroll taxes and add it to your weekly check, or he will readjust your pay figures so that your entire paycheck will be equal to what you used to call “take home pay” before the FairTax. The employer may also decide to do a little of both.”

    Boortz says “THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT YOUR GROSS PAY WILL EQUAL WHAT IT WAS BEFORE THE FAIRTAX.”

    As for the tax stats, look at IRS stats page by industry. Also looking at VALUELINE data for 6000 publicly traded companies indicates tax payments far lower than claimed.

    Part of the problem is that the fairtaxers selectively use GAAP marginal corporate tax rates to exagerrate the tax burden of the corps, while failing to disclose the $trillion or so of deferred income tax liabilities that become a gift to the large corps the moment that their SCAM passes.

    I have talked to staff of reps who endorsed this nuttiness out of friendship with Linder or to score political points with the kool aid drinkers who have told me off the record that their boss knows that this concept is totally unworkable, as the presidential commission concluded.

    I have nothing to gain by opposing this. I just hate to see a con job perpetrated on the unsuspecting citizenry being told that this will perform miracles just short of curing cancer.

  21. IndyInjun says:

    Shep

    About a year ago I had compiled a ton of data and analysis with the intention of launching a web site to poke fun at this deal. I used many links to the AFFT site, but it has been revamped leaving them dead.

    There are so many fanatics totally sold on this deal that I was reluctant to jump into a topic for which there is NO PERSONAL GAIN. The ‘experts’ behind the AFFT site were paid $millions for their ‘opinion.’ All I would get is furor from true believers.

    The stats about the GAAP debt are in the Financial Statements of the USA.

    Just doing the math on the per capita debt vs. income shows that SPENDING is the issue and how ridiculous any tax reform is without addressing it first.

    The value line data is available only by subscription.

    IRS tables on collection statistics are on their site. If you look at them, compare taxes as a % of total revenues. That is very revealing.

    Most of the contradictions are within the AFFT and fairtax book, as Mad Dog and others correctly state.

    If there are GA legislators interested in an explanation of why and how the federal FT would be a disaster for state and local governments, I will be more than happy to go to Atlanta and meet with them.

    I started put hearing the propaganda and was FOR IT, until I started digging.

  22. shep1975 says:

    I know what the AFFT site says, you don’t need to refer back to them, just show me where they are wrong. People asked me how I could say the Cobb GOP had not raised as much as some of its leadership had claim…so I posted the links to the disclosures. All I’m saying is show me where I am wrong…give me links that back up what you said, not what I have said.

  23. jaws810 says:

    Yes it’s true that foreign made products will have a minimal price drop, if any, when the FairTax takes affect, but is this a bad thing? Maybe the words “made in the U.S.A” will begin to appear on more products making more jobs for Americans instead of outsourcing all our jobs.
    Several dozen European and Asian business owners were asked “What would you do if the U.S. removed all taxes on income and production?” most of the answers were “I’d build my next plant in the U.S.”
    FairTax = More Jobs= more money to spend=people buy more stuff=more jobs for people to make stuff, and the cycle repeats.

    A few points that have yet to be mentioned here are the Black market(drug dealers, prostitutes, illeagal aliens, people that work under the table) these groups of people do not pay taxes under the current system BUT the spend their money. Anouther group that enjoy being in the U.S and do not contribute to the current tax system are tourists, however they love to spend money here and with the FairTax they will contribute. These two groups alone account for an estimated 1.25 trillion dollars that is untaxed every year, most of that money will be taxed under the FairTax.
    Anouther 4-6 trillion dollars is hiding in offshore bank accounts to avoid U.S taxes. If there were no business or corporate taxes most of this money would be invested in the U.S creating even more jobs.
    Double and triple taxation will end, yes I know, I already paid my taxes on my retirement money and other savings why should I have to pay again. All I have to say to that is what I said in my last post. “No tax plan is perfect, hovever the FairTax is the lesser of two evils when compared to the income tax.
    p.s. In 1913 the income tax was a flat tax of 2% on all income over 100,000 dollars and over the last 94 years it became the monstrocity it is today so the flat tax is not a good idea because it WILL NOT stay flat.
    p.p.s The solution to a lot of our problems would be a “balanced budget” amendment to the constitution but the tax system needs to be taken care of first.

  24. IndyInjun says:

    Jaws:

    Why does it not matter that there is almost ZERO embedded US tax to be saved? Well, for starters there won’t be the 22% reduction in price due to embedded taxes that is so ballyhoed as a benefit to we consumers. Second, for each dollar of (labor) cost advantage that remains after ‘Fair????’ tax passage, the purchaser not only saves $1, but saves $1.40 (assuming the stated ‘Fair????’ tax rate of 30% plus another 10% state ‘Fair????’ sales tax) Any price savings to the consumer on imports is MAGNIFIED by another 40%. This does not bode well for the little remaining US manufacturing.

    What is worse is that Prof. Alan Blinder estimated last week that 40 million US service jobs that can be outsourced offshore using the internet are ALREADY at risk. Putting a combined state, federal, and local, sales tax of 40% would be a death-dealing blow, because offshoring brings into play the nexus issues that now bedevil one state when online sales are made in another state. For example, Stock broker commissions are ‘Fair????’ taxable, making offshoring of brokerage operations a near-certainty, due to the price advantage.

    Jaws, you claim to be retired. Have you noticed that price increases are rising faster than income? Most retirees rely on fixed income securities, whose single digit returns are no where near the 15 to 20% annual increases in health care SERVICES, which are fair-taxable.

    I seriously thought the ‘Fair????’ tax was dead when gas prices went over $3. What if they go to $5 or $6 with an added ‘Fair????’ tax of 40%?
    Sorry, but taxes at these horrendous rates ON TOP of Federal excise taxes (not eliminated by the ‘Fair???? tax) will wreck working families.

    Switching to ‘Fair????” tax on consumer prices, when the money supply is doubling every 8 years , engendering massive inflation, will reward government for profligate spending.

    Why is this tax the “lesser of two evils?”

    A SALES TAX won’t stay fixed EITHER. Just look at Georgia’s combined sales tax rate. 25 years ago it was 3% and the local tax was 1%. NOW we are looking at 8% total (with the proposed transportation tax.) Shoot, Rep. Steve Davis proposed increasing the state rate alone to 8%, with another 3% for local tax, just this session. The FICA rate in the “Fair????” tax bill is VARIABLE, so you are delusional in thinking there is one iota of protection from tax increases.

    As for taxing the underground economy, if the state sales tax is so efficient, WHY are the GA House folks wanting to dramatically increase the number of state sales tax auditors and saying that more audits produce more revenue? There is a quote to that effect right here on PP.

    The ‘good’ news in all of this is that the “Fair????” requires all consumers to keep receipts as do the existing state laws and even allows the revenooers to estimate your sales tax liability in the event you fail to keep receipts, so if there is massive tax evasion at the retail end, they can come to your house and collect the ‘Fair????” tax from YOU!

  25. Mad Dog says:

    Sec. 207 provides for refunds.

    So the authors expect refunds. How do you get a refund on a sales tax? OPS!

    Sec. 508 provides for summons, examinations, and audits? If the plan is as perfect as the Kool Aid crowd says, why would there be audits. Who is going to do the audits? Who will issue the summons? Who will do the examinations?

    THE FREAKIN’ I.R.S. !!!!!!

    Under a new name, address, and telephone number. H.R. 25 or the Caveman Tax will not get rid of the I.R.S., audits, examinations, filing for refunds, fraud, …

    Don’t read the book. Read the worthless law Linder puked up.

  26. Mad Dog says:

    Chapter 6 is all about collections, appeals, power to levy….

    Chapter 9 provides for employers to continue reporting income to the federal government for each employee (sec 903)…

  27. Mad Dog says:

    Why do people keep listening to liars?

    Because liars are really good at making exactly the kind of promise that people want to believe.

    The people behind the Fair Tax are liars.

    On one hand, THEY say your tax burdens will fall and the government will be able to send you a check every month. AND, the government will be just as fully funded as it is now (that’s the lie about revenue neutral).

    So how does anyone get the tax relief and the big government check every month in a revenue neutral scenario as promised?

    The government has to borrow the freaking money.

    Never fricking mind that only $800 billion of the federal government’s $2.8 TRILLION dollars budget comes from individual income taxes.

    So when you get tax zero on your income and you have no other tax but a sales tax, you’ll be paying almost four times as much under the Fair???Tax.

    Currently individuals get only a percentage of income taxed. Under the Fair???Tax, individuals will be taxed on borrowing. And, that tax will be paid up front.

    Such idiots…

    The idiots say, “Income taxes reduce income. Get rid of the income tax and incomes will go up.”

    Then, the idiots say, “Tax spending and consumption!”

    If the idiot logic is applied equally then taxing spending and consumption will reduce spending and consumption. When taxable consumption falls and taxes falls, there will be new taxes and tax increases etc etc etc…

    or there will be a collapse of the federal government and the underlying social order.

    It’s a plan to destroy the United States government.

  28. jaws810 says:

    What i was trying to explain is that prices on foreign made goods don’t have the imbedded taxes so the price won’t drop much, however goods made in the U.S that have the imbeded taxes and will see a 20-30% price drop will become more desirable compared to the same product made outside the U.S so demand for now cheaper U.S made products will increase and will create more jobs.
    so the cost of a Toyota will increase when the FairTax is added; however the cost of a Chevy, which is loaded with imbeded taxes, will be about the same after the FairTax is added. what i’m saying is the FairTax will have foreign corporations outsoursing jobs to the U.S which will create jobs for Americans. The FairTax gives products made in the U.S. an advantage over foreign made products unlike the current income tax which gives the foreign products the advantage.
    Why do you think everywhere you look you see foreign made products because the income tax adds to the cost of production of American made products which makes foreign goods more desirable and causes American jobs to be outsourced.
    As far as the FairTax being a plan to destroy the government you may be right. It will distroy the government’s ability to use the tax system for political gain, and it may even distroy the government’s ability to increase taxes whenever they want by keeping the people confused and unable to calculate exactly what they pay in taxes.
    The protection from tax increases is the fact that increasing the tax will be harder to get through congress when the tax rate is on every reciept and visable to all taxpayers and not burried in 3 different taxes removed from your paycheck which gives you the illusion of not paying taxes because all your interested in is how much of a refund you got. The second an increase in the tax rate is mentioned everyone will know how it will affect them and they will let congress know that they’re against it, and if that don’t work, spending on new items will decrease and reduce government revenue until the tax increase is repealed. Some of the unnecessary government spending will have to end giving them less controle of every aspect of our lives and giving us the freedom to spend more time on the persuit of happiness.
    Yes, none of this matters if deficit spending continues, however maybe taxpayers will realize that the government is too big and taxes are too high and they will stop asking for so many handouts and take responsibility for their own lives.

  29. IndyInjun says:

    Mad Dog,

    You are right on many levels. I would differ in that the IRS is technically abolished making the IRS agents the happiest bunch of people on the planet. They will draw severance as Federal employees and immediately go to work for the state revenue departments doing the same thing with even greater powers to do intrusive audits on individuals.

    You are also right that the ‘Fair???? tax’ falls short of funding the government. Until the fair taxers changed their site, this was a lie very prominently displayed. “Revenue neutrality” , what they now claim, means that the revenues are equal under the new system. There are giant holes even there that I won’t go into.

    Jaws,

    The GEORGIA sales tax rate is also on receipts, but that is not dissuading the Georgia House from a move to increase the sales tax rate, which has already doubled as shown.

    The “Fair????tax” REWARDS BIG GOVERNMENT by taxing inflation, which is the increase in money supply. Under the current administration the money supply will double in 8 years, creating price increases all over the place. By creating a massive wave of inflation upon which the ‘Fair????tax’ is based, the government collects MORE taxes, while decreasing the cost of its liabilities.

    If you like big government, the “fair????tax” is for you.

    There is a false notion that folks can CHOOSE when and how much tax to pay under this nutty deal. Yeah, I suppose one could choose to die and avoid the tax on his food, medicine, health insurance, gasoline, electricity, home repairs, rents, municipal water, county sewer, and other ‘elective costs’ that just happen to be exploding.

    We fiscal conservatives want to tackle the budget deficit before the USA becomes officially bankrupt. If it means cutting SS, to keep young fellas like Shep from paying crushing taxes, then we need to have the courage to do it.

    The “Fair????tax” malarkey is just a distraction from the task at hand perpetrated by deceivers like Linder who have buried the USA under a mountain of debt, soon to be manifest in a crushing tax burden irrespective of tax system.

  30. Mad Dog says:

    Indy,

    I completely forgot about taxes being voluntary under the Fair????tax!

    What a crock of shyte!

    The income tax is voluntary, too. If you don’t make any money, you don’t get taxed!!!!!!

    If you wanna pay more in taxes, just make more money!!!!!

    Same twisted and perverted thinking of the Fair???tax as being voluntary.

    What 2nd grade teacher let these kids write a book?

    MD

  31. StevePerkins says:

    This thread is disgusting. I still haven’t made up my mind on the FairTax, and keep my eyes open for forums in which it’s being intelligently debated. Unfortunately, this isn’t one of those forums.

    The anti-FairTax people ignore the (very reasonable) requests to cite their information. The pro-FairTax people ignore the fact that older retirees would be double-taxed (even IF goods were a little bit cheaper, which I find highly dubious, that’s NOT AN ANSWER to the point that retirees would be paying taxes twice vs. younger people paying taxes only once).

    It’s like two ships passing in the night… rattling off their memorized talking-points yet not really engaging anyone like two people in a genuine discussion. You’re just talking “at” each other.

    I *guarantee* that 99% of the people involved in the FairTax debate understand even less than I do… they just know that someone they like is on one side, or (more likely) that someone they DON’T like is on the other side… and they’ve picked sides based on that. No one really WANTS a fair discussion, looking at it from all sides. This aspect of politics makes me absolutely sick.

  32. IndyInjun says:

    Steve Perkins…you are not being ‘Fair’????

    I provided a link to Boortz showing how there is a conflict between the 22% embedded tax claim and the CENTRAL claim that you get “100% of your paycheck’

    Mad Dog sited specific sections of THE BILL. The actual act is on Thomas and there is no way to link to a specific paragraph.

    The fair tax movement was started by $millions in donations from big oil which was used to ‘fund’ several economist works which is the basis for this scheme. They have spent $10’s of millions of corporate money, because the corps get a $trillion or so in immediate benefit.

    NO OPPONENTS have this kind of funding!!!!

    There are far too many people who have drunk the kool aid to launch an opposition site without someway of being compensated for the flames.

    Yeah, you are right there really should be a similar site for opponents. Life is not “Fair” and sometimes you have to dig into things yourself.

    We have posted only a few of the places to look.

    I apologize for being short, but there have been many threads in many blogs with a lot of excellent point and counterpoint. It gets really old doing the opposing POV over and over again.

    If Peachpunditeers think that there would be a way to be compensated for putting up an opposing site, please advise and I will reconsider doing it.

    I don’t even need anywhere NEAR the millions that the fairtaxers paid their ‘experts.’

    Maybe ‘Thanks’ from Grandma will be enough.

  33. Mad Dog says:

    Steve,

    The bill is in the public domain. It’s on Thomas. I’ve read the HOLY FRICKIN’ BIBLE of the FAIR????TAX…

    I’ve debated one of the authors mentioned in the book.

    If you’re looking to be spoon fed like a baby, Peachpundit is your place to be.

    But, you ain’t my child. I ain’t feeding you. Grow a pair.

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