The Debates

No, I didn’t watch them. I know who I’m voting for.

But here’s you an open thread to chime in on the debates from last night. The only review I’ve seen said what I could have predicted — the Ag Commish debate was lame.

67 comments

  1. The main structural critique of Thurbert Baker by Perry McGuire is that TB doesn’t argue enough of the state’s cases in court personally. So TB asked Perry McGuire, have you ever argued any case before any federal court, the Georgia Supreme Court, the Georgia Court of Appeals or any Georgia superior court? And the answer – no.

    So let me get this straight. TB hires professional attorneys with years of experience, many considered to be among the best in the state, to argue these cases before courts at all levels. And in most cases, he wins. In one particular instance, McGuire chastised TB for not personally arguing the state’s marriage amendment defense, which the state easily won.

    Imagine McGuire proposed elminating the law department’s highly qualified staff and replacing them with a corporate lawyer who has never argued a case in a superior court or higher. By offering up himself personally to argue these cases, he is doing just that.

    McGuire’s analogy is that having the law department’s professionals argue these cases instead of TB would be like TB being the president of the board of a large company and not going to board meetings. I think someone should ask McGuire whether he thinks the Superintendent of Schools should personally teach the children of Georgia, whether the Insurance Commissioner should personally inspect complaints, whether the Labor Commissioner should be at the field offices signing people up for unemployment, or whether the Ag Commissioner should be out there on his weekends inspecting the pumps? Because that is the true analogy for his complaint.

    I’m confident a majority of Georgia voters will stick with one of the most respected AG’s in the country who has a top notch staff that specializes in all areas of Georgia law. As Baker himself said, we don’t need a grandstanding Attorney General whose main concern is how much TV time he gets, and I’m not sure you could offer up a better description of what Attorney General Perry McGuire would be like if you tried.

  2. ugavi says:

    What I found interesting was the the libertarians basically said vote for us because we’re librertarian. They didn’t offer up any real platforms or agendas.

  3. Mad Dog says:

    Chris,

    If you go back and read all the crap McGuire put in the newspapers years ago, we could call him a paper hanging son of a biscuit eater.

    The guy wanted the state to use the powers of eminent domain to take away your automobile for breaking traffic laws.

    Maybe as Attorney General, when he’s not on TV, he’ll be personally driving a tow truck to haul away cars with parking tickets.

  4. CobbGOPer says:

    What about when TB turned to McQuire and asked him if he knew what RICO (as in RICO Statute) meant, and Perry floundered… because he didn’t know.

    For the curious or non-sheister types: RICO means Racketerring Influenced or Corrupt Organizations (i.e. the Mob).

  5. ugavi says:

    Madog,
    In the debates yesterday, I didn’t hear any vote for me I’m conservative. I did hear, here’s what I’ll do to improve the office that I’m running for.

  6. CobbGOPer says:

    BTW, I thought Karen Handel wiped the floor with Buckner. Buckner was just aweful, grasping at straws. Her answers were incoherent and imprecise, even when the panelists asked her for specifics about her plans for SOS.

    Handel by 10%.

  7. waterboy says:

    The Ag Commissioner debate highlighted why Gary Black will be a great commissioner. …and why Irvin needs to go home. Gary pointed out that he will utilize the Ag Department to advance the industry and state economy on biofuels and effective international marketing. Black is also knowledgeable on water use issues and disease prevention as well as food safety – all are key issues for Georgia consumers and the farm community. The only thing viewers learned from Irvin is that he is an old man and obviously doesn’t have the energy and enthusiasm needed to advance these programs. Irvin apparently doesn’t travel well either based on the comments from Black that he hasn’t attended meetings critical to agricultural production and security.

    Irvin wants 4 more years. Looks like he only has 10 more weeks.

  8. Mad Dog says:

    ugavi,

    Ah, the classic “Vote for me, I’m not the incumbent” ploy.

    Funny in that odd way, when the Democrats run that, Republicans whine about they don’t have a plan or stop being critical or any other of the usual semantics.

  9. Mad Dog says:

    Waterboy,

    So Black would be another source of corporate welfare for industry?

    Just forget about the mom and pop farmers, eh? Blow the budget on factories to produce fuels that cost us more than gasoline? Use whatever money should go to family farmers for huge industries that have nothing to do with farming?

    Like Pulp mills?Black wants the agriculture department to get involved with the international marketing of agricultural forestry products?

    Would that be like exporting workers from International Paper to Brazil?

    IP “company president Robert Amen laid out a plan for investment at a December 2 analyst conference in New York. The target areas? Brazil, Eastern Europe, and China.

    Amen outlined $300 million in investments in Eastern Europe, including a new BCTMP pulp line at the Svetogorsk, Russia, mill in 2005, and paper capacity increases at Svetogorsk and Kwidzyn, Poland.

    He also discussed a proposed $1.2-billion pulp investment in Brazil. The project, which could be a 900,000-tpy greenfield eucalyptus pulp mill and/or a new uncoated free-sheet paper machine in Très Lagoas, Brazil, could be operational in 2008.

    The reasons for such a project in Brazil are obvious. Amen said the Brazil project would create a low-cost uncoated free-sheet producer with cash costs at about $220/ton compared with a first quartile U.S. mill at about $350/ton and the average U.S. mill at more than $450/ton. Based on Paperloop Benchmarking data (Table 1), IP’s Eastover mill (the lowest-cost North American producer for UCFS printing and converting grades) has a cash cost of about $348/ton. A final decision on the Brazil project is expected by the end of 2005.”

    Is this the plan Black has for international marketing?

    How many billions will he spend out of the existing budget to market industrial giants that move overseas?

  10. Mad Dog says:

    Black has a plan for water conservation? Low volume flush toilets?

    “Water is the largest raw material input in the pulp and paper industry. Georgia integrated brownstock mills will use 5,000 to 12,000 gallons per ton of production. Bleached pulp mills in Georgia have water usages ranging from 13,000 to 25,000 gallons per ton; approximately 50% is used in the bleaching process. Specialty pulp mills can approach 40,000 gallons per ton.”

    So Black is going to save water by sending pulp mills overseas?

    Now there’s synergy in policy formation!

  11. waterboy says:

    Mad Dog –

    You have no idea what you are talking about…I can say more, but I’ll leave it at that.

  12. John Konop says:

    Mad Dog

    What is the solution for water?

    You cannot be against Low volume flush toilets?

    You are not for saving water by sending pulp mills overseas?

  13. Mad Dog says:

    Waterboy,

    I cut and pasted the information from pulp industry newsletters and stock market tipsters. The information is good.

    If you had something to say about how Black is going to “internationally market” for Georgia agriculture, you would have said it.

    The state taxpayers have no reason to pump money through the Agriculture Commissioners office into multinational corporations. Another nightmare idea from the far right, spending Georgia’s “farm money” in Brazil, Eastern Europe, and Russia.

    But, letting more pulp mills close in south Georgia, will save billions of gallons of water.

  14. Mad Dog says:

    Hey John!

    I’m FOR high volume flush toilets in the Governor’s offices, the Mansion, the House of Representatives, Congress, The White House….

    It’s going to take a lot of water to get all the human feces out of there.

  15. Mad Dog says:

    As that Marie chick said, “Let them drink Beer!”

    John,

    You’re going to have to narrow the water topic down quite a bit from a vague “water shortage.”

    I think we could have a good talk about population growth, limited water supply, water quality, water rights, actual property rights of those with streams or water sources on private property, current laws to protect water from human feces, stream buffers, private vs. public regulation of limited resources, …

    Want to define a water problem to start the back and forth?

    MD

  16. Mad Dog says:

    John,

    We might not have a say in where the next ‘industrial boom’ occurs, or in what industry the boom occurs.

    But, you’re right, we have no more jobs to lose.

  17. waterboy says:

    Mad Dog –

    You don’t know the slightest thing about agricultural production. You also apparently like the idea of being dependent of foreign countries for our food and fiber just as we are for our oil.

    I don’t want to showcase the fact that you are oblivious to national security measures regarding food production. Or with regard to industry driven initiatives to reduce water usage through the implementation of irrigation efficient technologies….you obviously know so much more than the rest of us. Good luck to you.

  18. John Konop says:

    Waterboy

    CAFTA: A Bad Deal Passes

    By Congressman Charlie Norwood

    Tariff reductions are not nearly aggressive enough on key products like poultry. Currently Central American countries send their poultry into the U.S. duty-free, but U.S. poultry products sent to Central America face stiff
    tariffs, some as high as 164%. A true free trade
    agreement would simply eliminate everybody’s tariffs immediately, or at least within months. However the tariff on our poultry products like chicken leg quarters takes over 18 years to finally fade away under CAFTA, while CAFTA countries continue shipping their leg quarters to us duty-free the entire time. Eighteen years of unfair competition could seriously hurt our poultry industry.

    Loopholes in CAFTA allow continued unfair foreign competition to put American workers into the unemployment line, especially in the textile and apparel industries. Provisions of CAFTA would expand failed NAFTA language that allows duty-free treatment of foreign goods. Also, CAFTA contains no guarantee or certainty that U.S. products such as yarn and fabric will be used by Central American factories to assemble finished products.

    http://www.house.gov/list/speech/ga09_norwood/CAFTApasses.html

  19. Bill Simon says:

    The only reason Perry McGuire is running is so he can file lawsuits against the ACLU and argue moral-questions before the Supreme Court.

    Oh, and, take the side of any municipality in Georgia who starts using government buildings and facilitites to preach and proslytize Christianity and gets sued by the ACLU.

    Billy Graham said it best: “America is not a Christian country, it is a secular one that has Christians in it.”

    Just what we need in this state…a clueless legal boob as AG.

  20. waterboy says:

    John –
    Actually we are NOT dependent on foreign countries, but we would be if we had your way. Trade issues are complex and you know it. Every country has its way of doing things and there is never a simple solution. Save the campaign speech.

  21. Big Mack says:

    This country screws itself on every trade deal that we make. I have been in the export business for 40 years and I long for the days to return when the only thing that you had to be concerned about was the value of the dollar. Our trade negotiators are MBAs from Harvard, Yale or Wharton who have never made a payroll in their lives but think that they know everything about business . After each deal is concluded the great sucking sound described by Ross Perot gets louder and louder. Business in this country does not need these negotiated trade deals that apply across the board to the whole USA but rarely are equally applied to the region of the world with whom the deal has been negotiated. Screw the World Trade Organization and especially the French .

  22. Mad Dog says:

    John,

    If you’re through kicking the waterboy, I’d like to borrow him.

    Waterboy,

    “[W]ith regard to industry driven initiatives to reduce water usage through the implementation of irrigation efficient technologies.”

    What does all that double-speak mean?

    Water costs too much to waste?

  23. rightofcenter says:

    mad dog,
    Excuse John for running off on a tangent again, but the question you proposed was in regards to helping to market Georgian agricultural products internationally. You got a problem with that? While you are cutting and pasting, why don’t you cut and paste something that shows that forest-product related industry is one of the top industries in this state, but a declining one? In case you didn’t know it, the large industry concerns have sold off their land holdings, so the beneficiaries of an active marketing campaign would be the thousands of landholders across this state, as well as those who benefit from the ecological advantages these timbered acres provide (that would be anyone who breathes the air or drinks the water). Georgia products, by definition, are grown and/or manufactured here, in Georgia. Gary Black is spot on — we desperately need to be proactive in this area, not reactive like the corpse-in-office, Tommy Irvin. Get a clue.

  24. John Konop says:

    Waterboy,

    We import more food then we export. Tell me the industry that export more than we import? Do you not have to sell more than you buy?

    OH do not worry we can add to the 1 trillion IOU to COMMUNIST CHINA!

  25. rightofcenter says:

    John,
    I’m not disagreeing with that. I’m merely commenting on the marketing of Georgia products abroad.

  26. John Konop says:

    rightofcenter,

    First most the industries yopu talk about employ mostly illegal immigrants to compete oversea slave labor. I would argue that people like you and meon pay for their work force via our taxes(schools,healthcare…).

    Also only the large corporate farmers have been the winners. Most farmers got killed in this deal. I do not see the long term economics on this deal. It looks like socialism to me.

  27. waterboy says:

    John –

    You are clueless. Stop it with the “corporate farm” crap. Have you ever been on a farm…do you even know where one is? Quit acting like you are an authority…..you are humiliating yourself. You are pathetic.

    Now…as for other BS comments you made. Gary Black has stated that NAFTA was not enforced as designed, therefore it didn’t work as planned. Quit making things up.

    Also…you said “We import more food then we export. Tell me the industry that export more than we import?” AGRICULTURAL COMMODITIES is the answer. The U.S. was up $3.6 billion in 2005. Here is a link to the data:
    http://www.ers.usda.gov/data/FATUS/DATA/XMScy1935.xls

  28. waterboy says:

    Mad Dog –

    My irrigation efficiencies comments mean that agricultural producers did not have to have regulators tell them how to reduce water use. They did the research, found technologies that could be used to reduce water use voluntarily.

    I hope that clears it up for you.

  29. John Konop says:

    Waterboy,

    You can ask Debbie what Gary said in front of the Cobb GOB breakfast. I will stand by what I said. Gary Black said in public that bad trade deals like NAFTA…. is why we have farm subsidies.

    Gary also said the guys in Washington do not know what they are doing with the trade deals in Cherokee at a GOP debate.

    BTW all the AG. candidates said Washington needed to listen them to fix the bad deals at the GOP Cherokee debate.

    You can call the GOP Chairman Pete Castillo.

  30. John Konop says:

    Waterboy

    This is what Congressman Norwood was talking about. BTW I have family on both sides that got out of family farm business due to the sell out trade deals you support. You should figure out If you an American first than debate me. all you talk about is job growth for illegal immigrants. I am sure your job some how pimps off the system of illegal labor. I have more respect for a welfare MOM than you!

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:
    In the summer of 2001, family farmers and ranchers throughout North America are struggling.

    During the 1993 debate over the fate of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), U.S. farmers and ranchers were promised that NAFTA would provide access to new export markets and thus would finally bring a lasting solution to farmers’ off-and-on struggles for economic success.

    Now, seven years later, the evidence shows farm income has declined, consumer prices have risen and some giant agribusinesses have reaped huge profits. These outcomes are defining the growing national debates over President Bush’s proposals to establish Fast Track trade authority and to expand NAFTA through the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA).

    This report reveals the basis for farmers’ concern about NAFTA and its model of export-oriented agriculture. For the past seven years, Midwestern and Plains states wheat farmers; ranchers in Montana, Texas and other states; vegetable, flower and fruit growers in California; lumber mill owners in Louisiana, Arkansas and Washington; vegetable growers in Florida; chicken farmers nationwide and others have suffered declining commodity prices and farm income while a flood of NAFTA imports outpaced U.S. exports to Canada and Mexico.

  31. Cotton Boll says:

    John Knop –
    After reading these post I have concluded that you are one of those morons that likes to complain about agriculture with your mouth full. Come to SOWEGA sometime and get an education.

    As for the debate yesterday, I agree with waterboy. Gary Black is the real deal. He has the support of the farm community.

  32. John Konop says:

    cotton,

    Flat to down income results for family farmers.

    READ

    Based on the failed model of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), CAFTA will expand corporate rights over some of the poorest countries in the region, including Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Honduras, and the Dominican Republic. NAFTA also caused the loss of 38,000 US family farms, while pushing 1.5 million Mexican farmers off their land.

  33. Bill Simon says:

    John,

    Ummm, to this comment of yours: “Gary Black said in public that bad trade deals like NAFTA…. is why we have farm subsidies.”

    Say what? Look, There were farm subsidies in THIS country for YEARS before NAFTA, CAFTA, or any other trade deal.

    Subsidies happen because the farmers have associations that hire lobbyists to bend the ears of people in Congress.

    That, and, we have pseudo-Republican capitalists like Saxby Chambliss who think that once you have a program in place, keep it in place at all costs to the rest of the country.

    Alaska has Senator Ted “The Internet is just a bunch of tubes!” Stevens as their poster-boy for sucking-in federal dollars, and we have Senator “I’ve Never Met A Farm Subsidy I Didn’t Like” Chambliss doing it for this state.

    Please, John, stop bringing the tired old “NAFTA-CAFTA” deal into the discussion on why we have farm subsidies. We have farm subsidies for the same reason we had a big welfare program until 1996: because people in Congress meddle where they shouldn’t be meddling.

  34. John Konop says:

    Bill,

    I was only answering Waterboys rant ;

    “You don’t know the slightest thing about agricultural production”. “You also apparently like the idea of being dependent of foreign countries for our food and fiber just as we are for our oil”.

    “I don’t want to showcase the fact that you are oblivious to national security measures regarding food production”

    My biggest point if waterboy cares about NATIONAL SECURITY why would he pimp of the system that brings in terrorist and fellons via the illegal immigration network for the ag. business?

  35. Mad Dog says:

    John and Bill,

    What in the nether blazes does National Security have to do with the STATE agriculture commissioners office?

    That Waterboy has dragged you both through his double-speak and mis-direction is an insult to your intelligence.

    More people have died from e coli than from agricultural terrorism. Waterboy should have covered that in his wonderful set of comments that he says means, “that agricultural producers did not have to have regulators tell them how to reduce water use. They did the research, found technologies that could be used to reduce water use voluntarily.”

    Using improperly treated human waste water on farm products is a more ‘efficient and cheaper’ way to irrigate.

    Say tainted spinach. Say tainted lettuce. Say e coli. Say human feces.

    You might want to be careful playing on the Buford City Golf course. Human waste products all contain e coli.

    Nice way to save irrigation water.

  36. waterboy says:

    You boys need to learn how global markets operate, agricultural production practices, and national security measures THEN go have a nice meal together. Until then, please do us all a favor and exercise your right to remain silent. Your stupidity is deafening.

  37. Mad Dog says:

    Right of Center,

    I seldom expect these threads to follow a smooth and rational path. Thank you for correcting John and that breaking of the thoughtless train.

    I have a huge problem with Ag Commiss Candidate proposing the Ag budget be used in a marketing campaign in other countries. Since few Georgia voters read French, German, Slav, Polish, Russian, Chinese, or Japanese, just as an example.

    But, I assume, we’re not talking about an ad campaign in foreign newspapers, are we?

    But, Black hasn’t spelled out how his trade increasing STATE delegation will be funded or operate. But, gosh, gee wish, and golly!

    We need to be selling Vadalia onions to Chinese and Indian peasants!

    Yes, to your comment on timber becoming a smaller and smaller industry for Georgia. You forgot that agricultural timber production for the US is down and predicted to continue falling. The “paper industry,” which is the market base for ag/forestry is predicted to continue falling in the US.

    The paper and agricultural forestry industry is moving to the international market. As I pointed out in my cut and pastes. There is nothing the STATE ag commissioner can do about that. Unless Black wants to fund the migration of the industry or pay a few bribes.

    With the US importing more and more products, there is less and less demand for domestic packaging.

    I was a long term stock holder of Inland Container Corporation. They owned the pulp forest, the pulp plants, and the paper/cardboard production. Inland Containers management long ago saw the declining return in replanting pine pulp forests. They foresaw the movement of production to other nations. With the movement of production went the paper/packaging industry.

    Black should go back to having bloggers repeat gossip about Irvin being drunk in public. It’s slightly more responsible than promising a money stealing, pie in the sky solution that doesn’t fit in the state Agriculture Dept.

    However, I can see Black salivating at the oppurtunity to travel to … China and India … and make a commercial. “Hi, I’m Georgia State Agricultural Commissioner Black. I’m here to tell you about the benefits of importing foresty products from Georgia.”

    I doubt it works. But, dang it would be fun to travel and be on TV.

  38. Mad Dog says:

    Waterboy,

    I know how world markets work.

    US corporations move jobs to other countries.

    Those corporations get global sized profits.

    Their ex-employees get world sized wages, like pennies a day.

    Their families get world living conditions, like cardboard boxes under bridges.

    Their children get global healthcare, like malaria, cholera, TB, typhoid fever, and a shallow grave.

    Globalism! It’s good for the American Working Family!

  39. Fogle says:

    FYI y’all:

    Burns vs. Barrow – the Final Round – will be Monday night at the Atlanta Press Club at 7 pm preceeding the 8th CD debate. Sonny Dixon is moderating and it will be televised on GPB.

  40. John Konop says:

    Waterboy,

    You say “you boys need to learn how global markets operate, agricultural production practices, and national security measures ”

    Let me understand how 20 million illeagal immigrants help National Security?

    1.6 million to 2 million are fellons from mainly Mexico to Central America and many end up in gangs.BTW the gangs from Mexico and Central America bring in about 80% of the METH!

    Read about one on the gangs that is growing because industries like yours will not follow the immigration laws.

    The Most Dangerous Gang in America

    Central Americans—many of them undocumented—the gang has a uniquely international profile, with an estimated 8,000 to 10,000 members in 33 states in the United States (out of more than 700,000 gang members overall), and tens of thousands more in Central America. It’s considered the fastest-growing, most violent and least understood of the nation’s street gangs—in part because U.S. law enforcement has not been watching as closely as it might have. As authorities have focused their attention on the war against terrorism, MS-13 has proliferated

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7244879/site/newsweek/

  41. Mad Dog says:

    John,

    Candidate Black and his waterboy have a great plan for agriculture commissioner.

    Mexican gangs running Meth made with sewage water being globally marketed with tax dollars.

    Once you go Black, we can never go back.

  42. waterboy says:

    John –
    Thanks for stating clearly your prejudices toward migrant workers and the hispanic community. I certainly do not approve of illegal workers being here and neither does Gary Black, as he clearly stated during the debate. You probably missed it because you were too busy talking to yourself.

    Dog Breath –
    Shut down your computer and hurry along or you will miss your school bus.

  43. John Konop says:

    Waterboy,

    I never said Gary Black supported illegal immigration. I was only talking about your basic lack of understanding how trade and immigration policy works. And how you misrepresented what Gary Black said about the failed trade deals that are driving up illegal immigration and killing small business, industries and American families.

    Anyone knows that we have a record trade debt and out of control illegal immigration right after trade deals like NAFTA….. It is common knowledge small farmers were victims of this policy.

    Why not be honest and say who you work for? Why not be honest and say you want nothing to do with going after employers of illegal immigration?

    As you look the other way and make money off illegal immigration, do not give me a lecture on National Security!

  44. John Konop says:

    Waterboy

    It was Caesar Chavez who first pointed out that immigration was a tool to drive wages down.

    It was the Chavez brothers who ran the first Minuteman project to protect the borders and enforce immigration laws

    Robert Abernathy (MLK Successor), Walter Mondale with the Chavez brothers held demonstration to block the borders in 1969.

    So are you also calling the Chavez brothers, Robert Abernathy, Walter Mondale racist?

  45. waterboy says:

    John, I never said anyone was a racist. I satnd by my support for a progressive agricultural economy because it is good for Georgia. Gary Black will lead the way on these important issues. As I stated long ago in this post:

    The Ag Commissioner debate highlighted why Gary Black will be a great commissioner. …and why Irvin needs to go home. Gary pointed out that he will utilize the Ag Department to advance the industry and state economy on biofuels and effective international marketing. Black is also knowledgeable on water use issues and disease prevention as well as food safety – all are key issues for Georgia consumers and the farm community. The only thing viewers learned from Irvin is that he is an old man and obviously doesn’t have the energy and enthusiasm needed to advance these programs. Irvin apparently doesn’t travel well either based on the comments from Black that he hasn’t attended meetings critical to agricultural production and security.

    Irvin wants 4 more years. Looks like he only has 10 more weeks.

  46. John Konop says:

    Waterboy,

    You said “thanks for stating clearly your prejudices toward migrant workers and the hispanic community”

    I would call this a clear attack of you calling me a racist because I am for immigration reform! What would you call it?

  47. John Konop says:

    Wateboy,

    You PIMP off a system of illegal immigrants for a living and you call me a racist. This is like John Karr getting mad at me for not letting him baby seat my kids!

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