I was going to respond to Linda’s many comments about my post yesterday with my own comments but found that I had too much to say. And I believe that Linda has provided me with the opportunity to further delve into some of the issues I discussed in yesterday’s post.
Let me first say that while I would disagree with Linda’s assessement of the condition of politics and Christianity in America, nevertheless, I do not question Linda’s motives. Linda is representative of a small vocal minority that believes they are under attack. I used to feel the same way.
And I used to make the same mistakes that Linda makes in her comments. There is a verse in the Bible that talks of “speaking the truth in love”. As with many things in the Bible, it isn’t always easy to do the right thing. Unfortunately many feel that it is better to err on one side than another. I used to believe that since I couldn’t figure out how to “speak the truth in love”, that I would be better off erring on the side of truth. Of course I ignored the fact that I was intentionally erring.
One of my best friends from college recently reminded me of how I erred on “speaking the truth in love” when I made a girl cry in school during a debate on abortion. And in my desire to “speak the truth”, not only did I not show love but I ignored another truth. I ignored the truth that other people, in fact all people, are made in the image of God and should be afforded tremendous respect and graciousness.
Linda said:
“That is where the scriptures get bent out of shape whne those with political ambitions try to be all things to all people. No offense, Will, but I do see that in your writing. And that is why you are so well received by so many on this blog. You show me in the KJV of the Holy Bible where Jesus altered the scriptures to appease those whom he preached to. I commend you for writing a history of religion in the South, but it is not the place of a politican to change anything which the Lord commands.”
This comment from Linda pretty well illustrates this overarching desire to speak the truth while ignoring love and ironically isn’t even true. I think this also illustrates the primary bone of contention that many people have with Christians as it relates to politics. It is this co-mingling of scripture with particular political stances.
Once again, I can understand this point of view because I used to hold it. I used to believe that almost the entire plaform of the Republican party was rooted in the Bible. Sounds absurd I know. I used to believe that free-market capitalism was absolute truth. While I still believe capitalism to be the best way to help the poor, I don’t hold it as absolute truth anymore.
The interesting thing is that there are few political issues that are so cut and dry as to say with absolute certainty what the correct position is. There are some Christians who would say that it is an absolute truth that prayer should be allowed in schools or that there should be public displays of the Ten Commandments. But it isn’t. To the contrary, the Bible clearly states that Christian should expect to be persecuted. While these aren’t neccessarily example of persecution, I can’t see any justification in the Bible to say that prayer in school is an absolute right. To the contrary, the Bible speaks little if any of “rights”.
Once again, the errors that some Christians make on these issues are born out of good intention. any Christians speak much about the absolute truth of Christianity. And they should. But this focus on “absolute truth” bleeds into other areas that aren’t so absolute. Should Christians help the poor and oppressed? Absolutely. It is commanded in the Bible. But how do we do it? Private charity or through government programs. That is the million dollar question that is worth considering. Of course arguing over the means doesn’t excuse inaction.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I hope and pray that Christians in the public eye will start to show more humility. It is one thing to say that there is absolute truth. It is an entirely different thing to say that one has a complete grasp on what that absolute truth is.
I also hope and pray that politicians in Georgia and throughout the country who claim Christianity would stop using demogoguery and fear to advance their careers. Laws that enable people to say “Merry Christmas” or that allow the public display of the Ten Commandments do little if anything to advance the cause of Christ.
I apologize for the overly religious nature of this discussion but felt that it would be helpful to some to see an insider’s perspective. By and large, Christians in America are not trying to form a theocracy and take over. This ridiculous assertion needs to be defeated once and for all. Christians ARE grappling with how to live out their faith in a changing world that is challenging for all people regardless of belief.
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Linda: if you think what has gone on in this comment thread is persecution, then I rest my case.
Well Bill Simon, what in the heck does that have to do with the price of tea in China, as to whether or not I have taken a foreign language class?
Well Will, how do you define the mockery of Christianity that you have started?
Do you think that you could win a debate with Jesus, Will? I don’t think I could, but I am asking do you? Do you think that he would water down the his words to fit society? Did he back down from the pharasees? Did he destroy the temple? Did he call them devils? What Bible do you read, Will?
“Will has proved quite clearly that persecution of Christians is real with a small sample. He has used a Christian like me as a scapegoat to have others to throw sticks and stones at to advance his own philosophy.” – Linda
WOW… this has got to be the most self-serving, degraded garbage I have read in a while.
The Holocaust was persecution. The Darfur genocide is persecution. Jim Crow laws were persecution.
This is just a little girl trying to force her will on others and getting called out.
Do you have the book of Revelations in your Bible, Will? I am wondering what Bible you hold your faith in. Is political aspirations so important that you are willing to bend and twist and jump through hoops to appease the naysayers and those that hate Christ. Are you willing to trade short-term power on Earth for a life long treasure in Heaven? I am baffled at your writings but not surprised, as I have read the scriptures. It is happening right before those with eyes that are open.
No, no, no Fogle I am not worried about the persecution of myself. You have clearly persecuted Christ throughout this thread. It is his words that you despise because they do not fit to your mode of thinking. I am not a little girl worrying about getting personally persecuted, as I am persecuted for being a prophet of the Lord and that is different. I am just glad that I understand scripture enought to see that it is as it was written.
I know that Christ is smiling because there is no greater debate on this blog or anywhere taking place than that which discusses Christianity. And take a look at worldnetdaily.com and look at all of the headline articles about Christianity. There is a spiritual revelation taking place in today’s time and we are all part of this history. Some mock it, some heed it and some do not know it is taking place. God bless all of you, and I pray that you find the Lord as I have to be the only answer in your lives.
Fogle, did you know the number of Christians killed in Russia in the early 1900s far exceeds any holocaust that you have listed?
WTF???? I think somebody is making God cry fer sure with all this babble running through here.
Linda, just a fyi, the Episcopal church is very much a Christian church. Our concentration is in the Gospels and their teachings of forgiveness, acceptance, and tolerance of our fellow mankind as Christ showed to us time and time again. e.g.,”ye who are without sin cast the first stone.”
As for the gay thing…we’ve got conservative republicans and knee jerk liberals accepting the sacrement side by side every Sunday. Now how cool is that?… what is it in the bible, “wonderous are the many ways of the lord.”
I don’t think that our deity ie: God, Yahweh, Allah etc. has a very high regard for politicians. I know that I certainly don’t and I have worked like hell since 1962 to elect every Republican that I could.
Linda, from the time that Stalin took over after Lenin’s death until his own death in 1953, it is estimated that he killed 35,000,000 of his own people, Jews, Christians and Moslems. That is thirty five million. He killed everybody in his army down to the rank of Master Sergeant except Marshall Voroshilov, Hero of the Revolution and a Marshall in the former Tsar’s army. The Chechnyans were all rounded up and put on trains to Siberia, all 750,000 of them where they died and were killed on a wholesale basis. Over the years the survivors and their offspring drifted back to Chechnya and they are the ones raising hell there now.
Hitler was a real tyrant, murderer and menace to freedom; but he was a real piker compared to Stalin.
Well Randy, that is the about the only scripture that allows you and other Christians to define Christ as an appeaser, which is casting the first stone. He was addressing the Pharasees (Rabbis) that had twisted the Commandments as written by Moses to suit their own political and wealth positions in life. They had turned the temple into a marketplace. In other words Christ was very hard on them because they were the heads of their temples, but they were the most blasphemous against God. You cannot take a tree out of the forest to define the forest, and you cannot take one scripture out to the Bible and not understand the context of those words as spokien by Christ and who he was addressing.
Jesus said he came with a sword to divide, and that is clearly what he meant. He came to clearly define the believers of the Ten Commandments and divide them from those that create their own rules as society dictates, just like the Episcopalian Church is doing today.
Well Spacey, may I suggest you go on and relax and get back to your critique of Bob Dylan and anyone else that you despise in pop culture. If you think God is crying about his name being talked about, then you are the one that is lost. Christ wants his name to be praised!
And Randy, it is just not the church you belong to. I am not trying to pick on your church at all. It is typical for ministers to go along with society because it is about dollars, about getting tithes to build bigger an more beautiful sanctuaries, it is about pomp and fluff and perfection of look how we worship in this beautiful church. Look at the clothes we wear to church, look at my new Lexus or my new Cadillac, look at how good my kids are doing in school, look at how I got a big bonus, look at me I got elected to office and look how people recognize me in the church now because I am an impotent tate. But no, no, no minister don’t tell me how to live my life; don’t read the scriptures during the sermon; do not preach fire and brimstone services; and if you do I’ll take my tithes and go somewhere else!
“that all Christians would read the KJV of the Holy Bible or at least a version of the Bible that has Christ’s words in red.”
OK LINDA, your lack of knowledge about Christian theology and practices is now so apparent and egregious that I must correct you (as you have now hit upon a nerve of mine).
Catholics DO NOT read the KJV (although an ancestor of mine did translate the KJV) and we DO NOT have to have Jesus’ words in red.
Do not ever equate me with your bastardized version of Chrisitianity. I am sickened and appaled to be lumped with you since you do not even know the practices of people who share your beliefs.
Well Rugby, gee don’t get so upset. What does Christ say in the Gospels of the Catholic Bible. Is it not the same as our Bible. I do know that the Catholic Church is losing members in droves that do not believe that the message of Christ is being taught. I know plenty of people that have started going to evangelical churches, and left their Catholic roots.
Does not your theology teach that Christ was baptized by John the Baptist? I am talking about Christianity from the belief as Christ said that you must be born again to be saved. And I take offense to your calling those millions of Christians that read the KJV of the Holy Bible as using a bastardized version of Christianity because that is a bold faced lie. That is why we had the reformation movement in the first place, which was that the Catholic Church tried desparately to keep the Bible away from the common folks. Do you know that history of the Catholic Church?
I have been a staunch defender of the Catholic Church as the media has tried desparately to defame the church with a handful of rotten priests that have gave the church a bad name. I have argued that you cannot bring down the entire Catholic Church because of a small minority.
Two of my sisters happen to be Catholic, and I take offense at your anger toward me. Jesus words should be the same in any Christian Bible, and that you cannot debate me on.
I love to read the Gospels and look for the red writing because it leads me directly to the words of Christ. Try it, and you may actually like it, too.
“LINDA // Sep 26th 2006 at 12:38 pm
Well Demonbeck, if you don’t read your Bible at home then you are wasting your time going to church. Church will not bring you salvation, as you have to come to church prepared. ”
Sorry, Linda, you are talking to a Lutheran. Lutherans believe in Salvation through faith.
“That is why we had the reformation movement in the first place, which was that the Catholic Church tried desparately to keep the Bible away from the common folks. ”
No, that is merely a small part of why the Reformation began. Martin Luther began translating the Bible so that common people could read it at home and found that there were things the Catholic Church was doing in the name of achieving Salvation that were not prescribed in the Bible. He made a list of them and posted his 95 theses on the door of the church. For singling out these things publicly, he was excommunicated.
Thus began the Lutheran Church.
And Rugby, I see it is a common thread for people that are Catholics to get angry at others, just like Ann Coulter talked of killing all Muslims or forcing them to convert to Christianity. You have not heard me say something so outrageous. Do you hate her, too?
Well Demonbeck, if your faith is not nourished it will not grow. And if you do not believe that Jesus commanded all of us to spread the good news, then you are missing that part of salvation. Even the disciples that were with Christ had their faith tested daily, and had to keep looking for more miracles to believe. And again, if you do not read your Bible in these troubling times then you will fall from grace. You have got to read the word to understand the word. You cannot rely on the preacher to do it all or whatever you call the leader in your church. And yes, I know of the Lutherans and you are good people.
And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).
The post is the 95th theses of Luther.
LINDA,
HAD you taken any foreign language course, you would know that words and meanings do NOT always translate exactly from one language to another.
Did you know that the original Bible text had no periods or commas? No punctuation means that a sentence can change meaning completely if you locate a comma or a period in a place different from where it was intended.
So, we get back to the fact that the original text of the Bible existed first in Greek, then in Latin, then in Hebrew, then in the “King’s English/Olde English” style of “English” and then today’s “English.”
Those people who translated from language to language used their own “conception” of what the meaning was OR, in the case of King James himself, the meaning he wanted it to be.
So, taking the “literal” meaning of what you KJ version of the Biblke is and assuming it is exactly what happened 2000 years ago demonstrates either complete ignorance or complete stupidity. Which would you feel most comfortable claiming you are?
Thus Martin Luther was a devout Christian that new that penances and false theology would not get one into heaven. He prayed daily and did read the scriptures daily. Luther did not take for granted that salvation was a given and nor do I. I am not guaranteed being saved, but I will try my best to do the work of the Lord. That is a dangerous mindset for one to believe that yes I am going to be chosen by the Lord without ever facing Judgment day. It does not work that way in the scriptures that I read. Yes, you can be offered salvation, but you also have to earn it by your deeds. And we shall all be judged by our deeds.
BTW, Part 2: The name of the book in the New Testament is the “Book of Revelation” NOT “Book of Revelations.”
Well sorry to burst your bubble Bill, but I will never fall into your trap of not wanting to believe and not wanting to become a Christian. You know that we will never see eye to eye, and you can not define me as ignorant. You are ignorant for trying to belittle a Christian that has their beliefs grounded in faith. I do not need for you to tell me that translations make words different. I know that Christ is the Lord, and I know that his words are written as close to perfect as I need. Can’t you understand that, Bill? For every grain of sand of doubt that you have, I have a whole ocean of belief in my heart and soul.
And btw, Bill, I have taken Spanish, French and German. Is that enough for you?
no LINDA, the KJV is not bastardized Christianity, *YOUR* version of Christianity is bastardized.
Yes, you are correct Bill, it is Revelation. Would you like me to send you a copy? Typo, I do not claim to type perfect.
Cry me a river Rugby.
Linda,
The Bible also teaches us not to have false idols. As a result, I do not worship the Bible. I worship God. I do not put the words of the Bible before my faith, I let the words of the Bible guide my faith instead.
Translating the Bible and taking the words too literally is, to me, the same as worshipping a false idol. The Bible was meant as a tool to show us the way. There are many paths to get to a destination.
Being judged by our deeds and earning salvation through our deeds are two different things as well. I do believe I will be judged by my deeds. However, I do not believe I have to perform certain deeds in order to achieve salvation. The Bible also teaches us that those who repent will achieve salvation – even those who have committed heinous deeds.
As for your post of one of Luther’s Theses, who’s to say what these tribulations must be. Certainly having to endure folks like Pat Robertson speaking on behalf of my religious beliefs counts as a tribulation.
Well LINDA, unlike you, I happen to be able to read.
I understand that quotation marks indicate that someone is speaking. I am not so dumb as to have to have Christ’s words highlighted for me.
I will not debate Christianity/Catholicism anymore with you as you are quite uninformed about my faith and you could not add anything substantive to a debate.
I would think that the Catholic Church would not want to make enemies of evangelical Christians. But I suppose that you are on a war path for them, Rugby.
Just because we do not believe in doing whatever you want to do, and then going and making sacrements through a priest does not make us a bastardized religion. The Jehovas Witnesses do not believe in praying through Jesus Christ although they believe in Jesus being the son of God. But I have never had a discussion with a Jehovah’s Witness that has belitteled my beliefs. They do not even associate with politics at all, in case you did not know that. But they are very loving and kind people.
WOW! I didn’t know that rugby_fan was the Spokesman for the Vatican!
PeachPundit has done all growed up.
Bill,
Your point on translatios is bery well tacen.
I chuse to beleve, as I was taunt in the third church I ever went to … that the Bible isn’t perfect.
I do love the efforts to include Greek fables in Christian stories, especially Daniel and the Lion, aka the Slave and the Lion from Aesop about 650 BC.
But, again, your point is very good. Not only did scribes change punctuation/content, they changed names to more European names.
Jesus? Appeaser?
hmmm, let’s see. There’s the bit about giving Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Or something about turning the other cheek. Or one of my favorites:
“[49] And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
[50] And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” Luke 9
alternately
“[38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
[40] For he that is not against us is on our part.” Mark 9
Your way is your way. But you have condemned others who follow in their own way, for they do not read the version of Bible that you do, and do not follow your means of worship, and…
Kirk
Oh Snap! Kirk is spitting the Truth on the rizzee!
I really don’t know what I just said.
Well Kirk, when Jesus says render that to Caesar which is Caesars he is testing those that follow a politician.
When Jesus talks about turning the other cheek, he goes on to say that he will give believers the words to fight their enemies.
Do not forget that Jesus spoke in parables.
No, I am saying the version that hold to be true as an evangelical Christian.
There are some simple guidelines that I believe in:
The Old Testament is the word of the Lord
The words of Christ are true, and he is the Lord.
The Ten Commandments are to be followed.
And there is only one way to heaven and that is to be born again as commanded by Christ and to accept him as your Lord and Savior.
So as a born again Christian, I can only accept those things that I have written. Evangelical Christians do not create any other false doors to heaven. Our Bible is our road map, and I feel fortunate to have grown up watching the Billy Graham Crusades in the 60s and the 70s, as he has it right.
And Kirk, this whole thread was about the minority that believes as Linda does. Was it not? Do you expect me to waiver from what I believe in to satisfy other people?
I’d like to take this opportunity to apologize to the Peachpundit community for subjecting you all to the commenting nonsense here today. I had hoped to generate a nice dialogue on some of these issue but it appears that some are not interested in dialogue.
I would usually say that this many comments is a sign of a good post, but not in this case where one person has written almost 75% of the comments, none of which contribute to any type of reasonable discussion. As the principal in “Billy Madison” said:
Indeed. Sorry all.
No, LINDA, once again, you are mistaken, I am only against you and your bigotry.
Demonbeck, thank you for your high praise and unwarranted faith in my abilities.
Well if one defines reasonableness as agreeing with your version of the church of what is happening now, Will, then I suppose that the posts are not in your best interests. I think you would do quite well if you went to a night club and told everyone, hey I am running for office and I love you all. I am the new Clinton of 2006, and I am here to bring salvation to you in a bottle or a neatly wrapped package of bs because those evangelicals have got it all wrong. Christians are not being persecuted, heck we are still a nation founded in biblical scripture. Vote for me because I need the power and the paycheck!
You could get those 50% of the people that never vote to get interested again!
Amd Rugby, it seems that you come off from some pretty bigoted remarks yourself. But I assume that Catholics all act like you and Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity! Only you guys have it right! Yeah boy!
If you come barking up my tree, Will, you will not get a scaredy cat ready to run away. I see that my comments got people motivated, and we have learned many people’s faiths. If I had not commented, you would have probably had twelve comments at best.
No offense meant to the proprietors of this blog, but if there’s 98 comments on a thread here, it usually means someone shat in the pool and everyone is scrambling for the exit at once.
It usually means that on my blog too though.
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